I've been modifying and listening to a Super_T vs. a stock Super-T for the past week.
Progress is being made, slowly going in the right direction. Not the huge difference that modding a little Sonic Impact makes, but then the Super-T is a better amp to begin with! More air, more lower mid richness.
Will report back soon.
Progress is being made, slowly going in the right direction. Not the huge difference that modding a little Sonic Impact makes, but then the Super-T is a better amp to begin with! More air, more lower mid richness.
Will report back soon.
Work Performed Last night:
I did it. …Yesterday after work, I pulled out my solder gun, and mono’d my two Super-T’s. I didn’t buy the switch yet, as suggested earlier in this forum. I just did not have the patients to wait.
I have one Super-T driving the right channels, and the other is driving the left channels.
In addition to this modification, on my way home from work, I also picked up a set of Audioquest inter-connects. The Audioquest cables have replaced a random mix of both Monster cable, and AR Acoustic cable.
The Result:
I’m subjectively rating this as a 33% increase in listening pleasure.
The difference is sound quality is very noticeable, and much larger than I was expecting.
To tell you the truth, this is not even the same system anymore. In-fact, it’s not even close to the same system.
While listening to the CD Geisha, I got a headache. I found my eyes staring into space, trying to locate sounds that appear to be originating from all over the room. What I hear, and what I see simply does not match up.
With my eyes closed, the room has become much larger. There is much more distance between individual sounds, and instruments.
In addition to all of this, there is a significant increase in the low end. Although this is not a scientific instrument, I think it’s as close as a measure I’ll ever get. I have a metal sculpture that hangs on my wall. That sculpture now vibrates if I turn the volume on my pre-amp to high (The volume on my T-amps is always turned all the way up). My system was not doing that before this change.
I highly recommend this procedure to anyone who is considering it. This is one change that you will without a doubt hear a very large difference.
I could go on and on, my excitement about this has already caused me to type too much.
I did it. …Yesterday after work, I pulled out my solder gun, and mono’d my two Super-T’s. I didn’t buy the switch yet, as suggested earlier in this forum. I just did not have the patients to wait.
I have one Super-T driving the right channels, and the other is driving the left channels.
In addition to this modification, on my way home from work, I also picked up a set of Audioquest inter-connects. The Audioquest cables have replaced a random mix of both Monster cable, and AR Acoustic cable.
The Result:
I’m subjectively rating this as a 33% increase in listening pleasure.
The difference is sound quality is very noticeable, and much larger than I was expecting.
To tell you the truth, this is not even the same system anymore. In-fact, it’s not even close to the same system.
While listening to the CD Geisha, I got a headache. I found my eyes staring into space, trying to locate sounds that appear to be originating from all over the room. What I hear, and what I see simply does not match up.
With my eyes closed, the room has become much larger. There is much more distance between individual sounds, and instruments.
In addition to all of this, there is a significant increase in the low end. Although this is not a scientific instrument, I think it’s as close as a measure I’ll ever get. I have a metal sculpture that hangs on my wall. That sculpture now vibrates if I turn the volume on my pre-amp to high (The volume on my T-amps is always turned all the way up). My system was not doing that before this change.
I highly recommend this procedure to anyone who is considering it. This is one change that you will without a doubt hear a very large difference.
I could go on and on, my excitement about this has already caused me to type too much.
Headphone question
This one has been answered before, you can’t do it because the T-amp chip uses bridged outputs. This means when you connect the 2 minus terminals together for headphone use you are actually shorting the amp out. It could be done if you rewire your headphones to separate the L/R grounds and connect it up as if it were two separate speakers. There are ways that it could be done but not worth the effort as it would require a capacitor in the path.
Roger
This one has been answered before, you can’t do it because the T-amp chip uses bridged outputs. This means when you connect the 2 minus terminals together for headphone use you are actually shorting the amp out. It could be done if you rewire your headphones to separate the L/R grounds and connect it up as if it were two separate speakers. There are ways that it could be done but not worth the effort as it would require a capacitor in the path.
Roger
Re: Re: Headphone question
The T-amps usually run between 40-110mV of DC offset. Not good for your phones, not good at all. And without an L-pad the T-amp are very noisy on phones. Way too much power. All around just not a good idea. A nice opamp headphone amp would be much better. Sounds better, too.
FWIW, My advice on T-amps and headphones is here:
CANS?
percy said:
The T-amps usually run between 40-110mV of DC offset. Not good for your phones, not good at all. And without an L-pad the T-amp are very noisy on phones. Way too much power. All around just not a good idea. A nice opamp headphone amp would be much better. Sounds better, too.
FWIW, My advice on T-amps and headphones is here:
CANS?
T-amp headphone drive
Percy,
What you would do would be to use only the + output from each channel and run them through 330uf @ 25 v caps to the left and right headphone input. The cap + terminals would connect to the amp outputs. The common headphone ground would connect to the power supply ground on the board. This would cut the available power quite a bit but maybe not enough to get around the noise problem Panomaniac has mentioned. I have no idea how bad a problem it is as I never tried this myself.
Roger
Percy,
What you would do would be to use only the + output from each channel and run them through 330uf @ 25 v caps to the left and right headphone input. The cap + terminals would connect to the amp outputs. The common headphone ground would connect to the power supply ground on the board. This would cut the available power quite a bit but maybe not enough to get around the noise problem Panomaniac has mentioned. I have no idea how bad a problem it is as I never tried this myself.
Roger
Rather than trying to use the T-Amp for something it is not designed for (i.e. headphone amping) build a dedicated head phone amp. A 'typical' diy design may be found:C-Moy headphone amp
Tom.
Tom.
Power Supply -110dB
I have a signal to noise measurement of a T-Amp (Fenice 20) with 2 different power supplies. One is the little SMPS that comes with the Super-T, the other is a 10A lab grade linear supply.
They are virtually the same. The linear supply has a little more 60Hz noise, that's all. So at least for noise and regulation issues, I don't see any reason to prefer a linear supply for these amps. The "line lump" SMPS that comes with the Super-T does a good job, even as small and cheap as it is.
The A-Weighted S/N ratio runs about -110dB thru most of the audio band. That's amp and PSU together. Not too bad! I'll be able to publish the S/N ratio and some other measurements soon.
I have a signal to noise measurement of a T-Amp (Fenice 20) with 2 different power supplies. One is the little SMPS that comes with the Super-T, the other is a 10A lab grade linear supply.
They are virtually the same. The linear supply has a little more 60Hz noise, that's all. So at least for noise and regulation issues, I don't see any reason to prefer a linear supply for these amps. The "line lump" SMPS that comes with the Super-T does a good job, even as small and cheap as it is.
The A-Weighted S/N ratio runs about -110dB thru most of the audio band. That's amp and PSU together. Not too bad! I'll be able to publish the S/N ratio and some other measurements soon.
Mods and results
This is a long one, so read at your peril.
I got back to modifying the Super-T today, I had put the project aside because it wasn't going as well as hoped. But no longer - Progress has been made!
Stock, the Super-T is a great sounding amp, great value for money, that for sure. But compared to some of the other top end T-Amps, it is a little lacking. A/B tested against the Fenice board and the AMP6, the Super-T feels a little dry, restrained. All the Music is there as well as very good detail on instruments and voices, but there is a slight lack of dynamics and what I like to call the "gravy" or the "sauce." By that I'm talking about all the tiny details and clues that allow us to hear the size and shape of the space the recording was made in. On very high ends systems, the space and ambiance are tangible. It can be amazing how much of this ambient sauce is hidden in most recordings - but it takes a world class system to let those detail through, I.E. not to wash the gravy off the musical meat.
The Super-T seemed to lack the sauce, though the meat was very good. It seemed that it ought to be in there somewhere, but why wasn't it getting through? That's what the mods are for.
Mod 1: Replace the input caps. The Super-T comes with cheap electrolytics on the inputs, those have to go.
Mod 2: Replace the power electrolytics. Stock caps are OK, but we can do better. Anyone who knows my mods knows how I like Panasonic FM caps for this job. So in they go.
Mod3: Simplify the output filter. The Super-T has a hell of an output low pass filter. 4 inductors and caps per channel, at 1st glance a 4th order low pass. The inductors are shielded type, that's good - and the caps are thru hole yellow polyester types. Nice. All of this filtering results in almost NO RF on the speaker lines - well done! But have we thrown out the baby with the bath water? Maybe. Closer examination of the filter revealed that it is 2 second order filters in series. Even the zobel! Getting rid of half the filter and using better (maybe) inductors should bring some life back to the music.
Mod4: Replace the cheap input cable with higher quality stuff. At least the stock wire is shielded.
Mod5: Remove some of the filtering on the inputs, 2 SMD caps and a resistor per channel that don't really need to be there.
Mod6: Replace zip wire on the outputs with better quality wire. Might not help, but sure won't hurt.
Mod7: Use premium quality connectors. Same as mod6. Stock connectors are by Connex, I think. Pretty good, if not primo quality.
Results? Disappointing. Though the changes were noticeable and in the right direction, they didn't seem to be worth the trouble. And you get more RFI for your all the effort. Phooey. So I went off to work on some CD player mods other amps and let the modded Super burn in for week.
However: Today I replaced the medium quality film input cap that was holding place until some better caps arrived. The new cap made a world of difference! Ah Ha!! Now the amp sounds right, now it sings, now it has dynamics. All the changes I had hoped for are there in spades. Happy, happy, joy, joy.
Compared to a stock Super-T with 3 weeks burn in, the modded amp has more dynamic range, a larger sound, richer mid range and all that acoustic musical sauce that was missing. Victory! My guess is that a little burn in and most of all a better input cap allowed the rest of the modifications to shine through. It was a big surpise to me.
I'll get some photos and diagrams together soon and up on my site for you other Super Modders. Two of the prototype modded amps will show up on eBay soon, if anyone is interested.
This is a long one, so read at your peril.
I got back to modifying the Super-T today, I had put the project aside because it wasn't going as well as hoped. But no longer - Progress has been made!
Stock, the Super-T is a great sounding amp, great value for money, that for sure. But compared to some of the other top end T-Amps, it is a little lacking. A/B tested against the Fenice board and the AMP6, the Super-T feels a little dry, restrained. All the Music is there as well as very good detail on instruments and voices, but there is a slight lack of dynamics and what I like to call the "gravy" or the "sauce." By that I'm talking about all the tiny details and clues that allow us to hear the size and shape of the space the recording was made in. On very high ends systems, the space and ambiance are tangible. It can be amazing how much of this ambient sauce is hidden in most recordings - but it takes a world class system to let those detail through, I.E. not to wash the gravy off the musical meat.
The Super-T seemed to lack the sauce, though the meat was very good. It seemed that it ought to be in there somewhere, but why wasn't it getting through? That's what the mods are for.
Mod 1: Replace the input caps. The Super-T comes with cheap electrolytics on the inputs, those have to go.
Mod 2: Replace the power electrolytics. Stock caps are OK, but we can do better. Anyone who knows my mods knows how I like Panasonic FM caps for this job. So in they go.
Mod3: Simplify the output filter. The Super-T has a hell of an output low pass filter. 4 inductors and caps per channel, at 1st glance a 4th order low pass. The inductors are shielded type, that's good - and the caps are thru hole yellow polyester types. Nice. All of this filtering results in almost NO RF on the speaker lines - well done! But have we thrown out the baby with the bath water? Maybe. Closer examination of the filter revealed that it is 2 second order filters in series. Even the zobel! Getting rid of half the filter and using better (maybe) inductors should bring some life back to the music.
Mod4: Replace the cheap input cable with higher quality stuff. At least the stock wire is shielded.
Mod5: Remove some of the filtering on the inputs, 2 SMD caps and a resistor per channel that don't really need to be there.
Mod6: Replace zip wire on the outputs with better quality wire. Might not help, but sure won't hurt.
Mod7: Use premium quality connectors. Same as mod6. Stock connectors are by Connex, I think. Pretty good, if not primo quality.
Results? Disappointing.
Though the changes were noticeable and in the right direction, they didn't seem to be worth the trouble. And you get more RFI for your all the effort. Phooey. So I went off to work on some CD player mods other amps and let the modded Super burn in for week.However: Today I replaced the medium quality film input cap that was holding place until some better caps arrived. The new cap made a world of difference! Ah Ha!! Now the amp sounds right, now it sings, now it has dynamics. All the changes I had hoped for are there in spades. Happy, happy, joy, joy.
Compared to a stock Super-T with 3 weeks burn in, the modded amp has more dynamic range, a larger sound, richer mid range and all that acoustic musical sauce that was missing. Victory! My guess is that a little burn in and most of all a better input cap allowed the rest of the modifications to shine through. It was a big surpise to me.
I'll get some photos and diagrams together soon and up on my site for you other Super Modders. Two of the prototype modded amps will show up on eBay soon, if anyone is interested.
Panomaniac, (or others) I’m wondering if you have a good source for individual components on the web. I’d like to try a few of your recommended modifications, but I will need help in determining where I can order quality upgrades on the web.
In this last week I haven’t changed much as far as my two super T’s go. I’m still finding them amazing in there existing condition. As it stands now, I’m all for sound quality, any convenience is now secondary. I’m considering by-passing the pot’s with my my new best friend (a 15$ Radio-Shaq solder gun, who has now acquired the name “Samantha”….. Oh, Hot Samantha) and using my pre-amp as volume control.
One question I have for the qualified professionals. Am I likely to loose more sound quality from the individual Pot’s on the amps, or from the additional cabling and circuitry that the pre-amp requires? If you think the pre-amp hurts me more, please let me know.
My pre-amp is the JEC TC-754. I’m currently searching for a re-placement, and have plans to move this item to my pc, but a few of the board members here seem to be rudely, and consistently out-bidding me on e-bay.
I have however successfully convinced a friend to buy a few Super-T’s for himself, replacing his piece of you know what dennon…..Our you reading this Mark? After listening to my system, he found this thread himself, and asked me about it.
Since the last time I posted here. I have been playing around with my existing equipment, trying to extract all that I can from it, (mostly from your recommendations) with the least amount of cash spent. I been playing with a few of the popular DIY cable varieties found on the web, I have also been brain storming, and believe to have created, some excellent vibration dampers for my system. If I find my digital camera I’ll post a few pictures in a more appropriate thread. I believe I may have some interesting Ideas on this subject. I also did the Home Depot porcelain cable suspension thing. (However, I hear no difference in sound quality with that mod, I must however admight, the esthetic factor visually pleases me, and somehow validates the cost.
In this last week I haven’t changed much as far as my two super T’s go. I’m still finding them amazing in there existing condition. As it stands now, I’m all for sound quality, any convenience is now secondary. I’m considering by-passing the pot’s with my my new best friend (a 15$ Radio-Shaq solder gun, who has now acquired the name “Samantha”….. Oh, Hot Samantha) and using my pre-amp as volume control.
One question I have for the qualified professionals. Am I likely to loose more sound quality from the individual Pot’s on the amps, or from the additional cabling and circuitry that the pre-amp requires? If you think the pre-amp hurts me more, please let me know.
My pre-amp is the JEC TC-754. I’m currently searching for a re-placement, and have plans to move this item to my pc, but a few of the board members here seem to be rudely, and consistently out-bidding me on e-bay.
I have however successfully convinced a friend to buy a few Super-T’s for himself, replacing his piece of you know what dennon…..Our you reading this Mark? After listening to my system, he found this thread himself, and asked me about it.
Since the last time I posted here. I have been playing around with my existing equipment, trying to extract all that I can from it, (mostly from your recommendations) with the least amount of cash spent. I been playing with a few of the popular DIY cable varieties found on the web, I have also been brain storming, and believe to have created, some excellent vibration dampers for my system. If I find my digital camera I’ll post a few pictures in a more appropriate thread. I believe I may have some interesting Ideas on this subject. I also did the Home Depot porcelain cable suspension thing. (However, I hear no difference in sound quality with that mod, I must however admight, the esthetic factor visually pleases me, and somehow validates the cost.
Hi Charged,
There are many places to ge good parts on the web in North America.
A few well known are:
Parts Express
Digikey.com
Mouser.com
Michael Percy Audio
Parts Connexion (Canada)
Welborne Labs
Jameco
Some have minimum orders, others do not. At mouser and digikey you have to know what you're looking for.
As for a preamp being good or bad, it's hard to say. A good pre can often sound beter than none at all, or a passive one. Same for line drivers. If you do use a pre, bypassing the Super-T pots is good idea.
There are many places to ge good parts on the web in North America.
A few well known are:
Parts Express
Digikey.com
Mouser.com
Michael Percy Audio
Parts Connexion (Canada)
Welborne Labs
Jameco
Some have minimum orders, others do not. At mouser and digikey you have to know what you're looking for.
As for a preamp being good or bad, it's hard to say. A good pre can often sound beter than none at all, or a passive one. Same for line drivers. If you do use a pre, bypassing the Super-T pots is good idea.
This is an off-topic post to the thread title, but may be interesting to someone who is willing to sacrifice convenience.
If you’re looking for an exclusive Super T-amp review, I’ll warn you now to skip this post. If you’re a moderator, and feel that I’m straying off subject, please move this post to another thread.
But if you’re on a budget, and don’t own a t-amp yet, and find your self looking for an objective comparison in products spanning 30 years, please read on.
I’ll attempt to reveal both positives, and flaws in the products described.
I recently acquired a vintage Marantz 1060 amp, I’m once again a little too excited. I now have two systems in one rack, that look visually similar next to each other, but basically compliment each other like Ying/Jang. The two products look do look nice next to each other.
The Sonic product plays music in a way I have never experienced music played before. It can play and expose the most minute details. Due to it’s clarity, It also tends to expose the worst, as well as the best in the recordings I have played.
The Marantz amp, I am finding hides the particular detail that the T-amp will expose, but at the same time offer’s a fuller more powerful sound. It tends to hide the flaws in poorly recorded material. It oozes with a powerful sound, that I’m finding the stock T-amp lacks in.
Both amps, offer a new undiscovered aspect in my music collection.
If I had to choose only one amp to run my system, I would defiantly choose my twin T’s. (I’ve always had a thing for cute twins) I must admight however that, I do enjoy the newly found dimension that the vintage Marantz is now bringing to the table.
The two different amps can bring me pleasure in completely different dimensions. I feel this may let me enjoy the same recordings more often. I often bore easily with my music, and believe that the different aspect offered between the two amp’s, will allow me to enjoy a individual recording for a longer period time.
In my short experiment, I’m finding that the Super-T is more enjoyable with very clear recordings, while the vintage amp may offer me more pleasure with 70-80’s rock. I’m now finding this type of music is not always recorded as clear as possible; the T-Amp in particular will definatly expose these faults.
If you’re looking for an exclusive Super T-amp review, I’ll warn you now to skip this post. If you’re a moderator, and feel that I’m straying off subject, please move this post to another thread.
But if you’re on a budget, and don’t own a t-amp yet, and find your self looking for an objective comparison in products spanning 30 years, please read on.
I’ll attempt to reveal both positives, and flaws in the products described.
I recently acquired a vintage Marantz 1060 amp, I’m once again a little too excited. I now have two systems in one rack, that look visually similar next to each other, but basically compliment each other like Ying/Jang. The two products look do look nice next to each other.
The Sonic product plays music in a way I have never experienced music played before. It can play and expose the most minute details. Due to it’s clarity, It also tends to expose the worst, as well as the best in the recordings I have played.
The Marantz amp, I am finding hides the particular detail that the T-amp will expose, but at the same time offer’s a fuller more powerful sound. It tends to hide the flaws in poorly recorded material. It oozes with a powerful sound, that I’m finding the stock T-amp lacks in.
Both amps, offer a new undiscovered aspect in my music collection.
If I had to choose only one amp to run my system, I would defiantly choose my twin T’s. (I’ve always had a thing for cute twins) I must admight however that, I do enjoy the newly found dimension that the vintage Marantz is now bringing to the table.
The two different amps can bring me pleasure in completely different dimensions. I feel this may let me enjoy the same recordings more often. I often bore easily with my music, and believe that the different aspect offered between the two amp’s, will allow me to enjoy a individual recording for a longer period time.
In my short experiment, I’m finding that the Super-T is more enjoyable with very clear recordings, while the vintage amp may offer me more pleasure with 70-80’s rock. I’m now finding this type of music is not always recorded as clear as possible; the T-Amp in particular will definatly expose these faults.
For those that have had the original T-Amp and the new super T-Amp, and have modified both extensively; which one gives the best end result?
If one is to do heavy modifications in any case, with a new case, new power supply etc, isn't it better to go for the original, saving some cash for modification components?
And, is the super T-Amp stock power supply worth upgrading to a linear one?
If one is to do heavy modifications in any case, with a new case, new power supply etc, isn't it better to go for the original, saving some cash for modification components?
And, is the super T-Amp stock power supply worth upgrading to a linear one?
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