What is the difference between d-class and t-class?

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This discussion reminds me the FM tuners of 20 years ago.
They had 'DIGITAL' is capital letters (and stickers) on the front, while they were analog, with digital tuning.
The lettering was usually like 'Digital AM/FM Stereo tuner'.
Then it came RDS. The 'DIGITAL' lettering grew up even more, along with 'RDS', 'TEXT', etc.
Now you see DAB tuners with 'DIGITAL' on it. Makes a little more sense.

It even went to the ridiculous 'Digital TV', while it only had a digital tuner.

They can say what they want.
 
The marketing departments love to use certain words and they do whatever they can to get an excuse to do so. Digital is such a word, but there are many other. Many years ago I heard a story about one of the big manufacturers of microwave ovens (doesn't matter which one it was). The marketing department had realized that there was a new (to the industry) technology called "fuzzy logic control" which some companies were starting to use. They demanded that the engineering department put some fuzzy logic control into the ovens, so they could say so in the marketing. Of course there was no reasonable way to find some sensible use for it in a microwave oven, but marketing was persistent, so the engineers had to put a fuzzy logic controller in the ovens to do something that could have been done in a simpler and cheaper way. Now the marketing guys could sell microwave ovens with fuzzy logic control. I am sure one could find similar (mis)uses of the word digital in audio.
 
Christer said:
The marketing departments love to use certain words and they do whatever they can to get an excuse to do so. Digital is such a word, but there are many other. Many years ago I heard a story about one of the big manufacturers of microwave ovens (doesn't matter which one it was). The marketing department had realized that there was a new (to the industry) technology called "fuzzy logic control" which some companies were starting to use. They demanded that the engineering department put some fuzzy logic control into the ovens, so they could say so in the marketing. Of course there was no reasonable way to find some sensible use for it in a microwave oven, but marketing was persistent, so the engineers had to put a fuzzy logic controller in the ovens to do something that could have been done in a simpler and cheaper way. Now the marketing guys could sell microwave ovens with fuzzy logic control. I am sure one could find similar (mis)uses of the word digital in audio.


Yeah and you wouldn't have to go far to find it either. In fact it's so commonly done I'm forced to grant Tripath that one thing. It's when they start inventing the words that I lose respect.

Edit: Although they seem to be claiming "true digital" these days. That's a different story again.
 
classd4sure said:



Yeah and you wouldn't have to go far to find it either. In fact it's so commonly done I'm forced to grant Tripath that one thing. It's when they start inventing the words that I lose respect.

Yes, but I was thinking of doing something digital that doesn't need to be done digitally, just to get an excuse to write digital on the front. But of course, some companies like Tri-Path don't even bother if what they call digital is digital. In either case, it is a marketing trick to mislead customers.

There was another funny store during the fuzzy-logic hype. Some japanese company used fuzzy logic control for autofocus in video cameras (which maybe could be justified). However, they didn't realize they had better keep shut about it. The customers didn't understand why they should buy a videocamera with fuzzy focus. :)
 
Christer said:


Yes, but I was thinking of doing something digital that doesn't need to be done digitally, just to get an excuse to write digital on the front. But of course, some companies like Tri-Path don't even bother if what they call digital is digital. In either case, it is a marketing trick to mislead customers.

There was another funny store during the fuzzy-logic hype. Some japanese company used fuzzy logic control for autofocus in video cameras (which maybe could be justified). However, they didn't realize they had better keep shut about it. The customers didn't understand why they should buy a videocamera with fuzzy focus. :)


Hah. Nice when it backfires.

Actually I made a mistake they don't claim "true digital"

Here's an interesting link with will burry this thread.

http://www.tripath.com/downloads/an2.pdf

One can see here that while it is an admitted trademark, they obviously do, and always have, intended it as a class of it's own, apart from class D.

According to your points however, I'm somewhat sure they dont' even use any sort of DSP to time the switching of the outputs, from their patents it's all done via analog means, I'm sure Charles can comment on that further.
 
Is Tripath misleading consumers?

Ok -classd4sure- I read the white paper and I think I see the confusion.

"How about the mere fact they call it "Class T" when there is no such class, "

This is my Dictionary defenition of Class:
Class |klas| noun 1. a set or category of things having some property or attribute in
common and differentiated from others by kind, TYPE, or quality.

TYPE is the important one here. They are using Class as a Synonym for Type.
Not an improper use.

Replace Class-T with Type-T and the problem is gone.


"From their own website, just a few of what I'm sure are many examples of the same:"
"In the audio arena, DPP® has given rise to a new class of true digital audio amplifiers, known as Class-T®. Our technology provides a combination of fidelity, power efficiency and economy far superior to the Class-A, -AB and -D amplifiers prevalent in current- generation audio. Tripath provides audio amplifier solutions to manufacturers of professional, home, car and PC sound systems. "


"Not only are they claiming it isn't class-d (it is)"
I did not see that anywhere.

"they're claiming it's true digital (far from it)."
"new class of true digital audio amplifiers"
Look near bottom of this post.


"Yet on the same page below:
"Tripath markets audio amplifiers with DPP(R) under the brand name Class-T(R). " Key word being "brand name".
Contradicted themselves. So, is it a new class of amp, or a brand name? They're trying to tell you it's both."

It's a new Type of amp with a new Brand Name.


"So while there they admit it's a brand name/trademark,"

It's not an admission. They are telling us.

"they keep saying it isn't class-d, leading you to believe it's a unique amplifier class, something other than the trademark which it is."

I don't see where they say it's not Class-d

"and I quote "Switching Digital Amplifiers (commonly known as Class-D) were introduced some years ago."
"First off, switching amps aren't "digital", "digital" does not mean "class d", they based their work off powrephysics, parent company, so not entirely revolutionary, neither is it new.

Oxford Dictionary:
Digital |?dijitl| adjective 1 relating to or using signals or information represented by
discrete values (digits) of a physical quantity, such as voltage or magnetic polarization,
to represent arithmetic numbers or approximations to numbers from a continuum or
logical expressions and variables : digital TV.

Digital Radio , Digital Camera, Digital Clock, Digital CD Player, Digital Switch, Digital
Magazine, Digital Eye, Digital Library; God I could go on forever.

Digital amplifier is no different than any of things above.
What they have in common that makes them digital is they have an I/O interface,
either analogue or digital but all have some intermediate digital process.

"It's little wonder you're confused, with this level of BS out there. They're alllllllllll class D, non of them are digital..... etc."

Nope, I'm not comfused. I just know how words are used in our common Lexicon.

Bachiano
 
Hey Classd4sure, don't get mad

Did I make you feel like this :bawling:

I do that to my wife sometimes.

I'm just playing devil's advocate for the sake of a fun debate. :devilr:
I know perfectly well what tripath is doing - they are however IMO harmless when you compare them to other industries.

Bachiano

P.S. Please Don't leave, it was fun :)
 
Actually it was boring, captain of the debate team, were you?

I enjoy a good argument, trust me. But the topic should first be interesting, and not with a past determined outcome, that's where you lost this one, and your dictionary isn't going to save you, nor however many times you change the context to suit your purpose.

First it's a trademark so they aren't misleading and now it's a class of its own again, which is it? I already know and wont' be convinced otherwise by you.

Electronics don't ******** you, marketing does, and this isn't a marketing forum.

Furthermore, you're making yourself appear foolish. Quoting the dictionary?? Really.

If it's an honest question that's one thing, you're simply reducing the signal to noise ratio around here at this point, and I don't think I can hear you anymore.

I'd just like to close with.. "yawn"
 
well, I guess I really pushed your buttons

I was trying to finish this nicely.

"I enjoy a good argument, trust me. But the topic should first be interesting,"

It was interesting for me!

" and not with a past determined outcome,"

Actually that is the point of a debate - you pick a side and try to win at all cause,
even if you don't subscribe to you're own side.
Debate is just a forum for learning. Not for ------- people off.


"Electronics don't ******** you, marketing does, and this isn't a marketing forum."

This is not nessesary I'm here because I love music.

Furthermore, you're making yourself appear foolish. Quoting the dictionary?? Really.

Really? How is that foolish. That's what my mom taught me -" make sure you are using words correctly. Check the Dictionary" People are always fighting because they misinterpret words.

"If it's an honest question that's one thing,"

It was an honest Question - When I first asked the question I really did not know.
People were saying that tripath was being misleading and I did not see how.

Bachiano
 
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=foolish

How did you think I'd respond to being quoted to by the dictionary?

You say you didn't know, and that's OK, but then why play devil's advocate as you say? That's where it starts going downhill my friend, and becomes foolish, I'll elaborate on that in a bit.

You also still say you don't see any examples where Tripath makes the claim that they're something other than class d, I've provided you with many examples of exactly that. Then you argue it's a trademark and so not misleading, quotes from which came from Cruthfield, who was correct to overstate that it is a trademark, unlike Tripath, who put it in the fine print, and then go on to say "we aren't class D, class D baaaad", and they've dedicated an entire app note "an2" which I linked you to, saying Class T is not class D. So is it a trademark or a class? According to them it would be both, they're only half right.

Then you start quoting the dictionary trying to say Class T is different and so it's correct, manipulating the meaning of the word "class", and poorly I might add, for as you say, it is synanomous. You further failed to establish how it's different. We've established already it's a class d amp, so your whole Type T argument is laughable, also synamous with foolish, as per the linked definition.

I think you're trying to end this on a note where you save face. Maybe you should just ask a mod to delete this thread, I won't mind.

A better method would be to put a little more forthought into your posts and avoid that situation by not choosing to further debate a dead end, which I find to be foolish.

According to the definition of foolish I believe I used the word appropriatly on every account.


Shame on me for having sunk this low. Hope to see you in Texas, yes?
 
I don't agree with Tripath using "Class-T" to label their product, but their not the first and surely not the last to use such marketing to sell something.

It really doesn't matter in the end, the majority of people who buy a Tripath product do so because of factors like cost and performance, not because its called "Class-T".

Besides, if you bought an amp thinking it was some new class of its own and enjoyed the sound it put out, and then someone rains on your parade and tells you its not what you thought it was, would it change the way it sounds?
 
theAnonymous1 said:
I don't agree with Tripath using "Class-T" to label their product, but their not the first and surely not the last to use such marketing to sell something.

It really doesn't matter in the end, the majority of people who buy a Tripath product do so because of factors like cost and performance, not because its called "Class-T".

Besides, if you bought an amp thinking it was some new class of its own and enjoyed the sound it put out, and then someone rains on your parade and tells you its not what you thought it was, would it change the way it sounds?


You make some good points there. It's not that a big a deal, providing you know the difference. I disagree with it strongly for the reasons that there's already such a steep learning curve, "inventing" their own classes add confusion to the matter for anyone who is trying to learn.

If I asked you to draw me a class A amp, you probably could, same with B, D, etc.

Can you draw me a class T amp? No you can't, because it's proprietary class D, all you can do is draw me an outline of an IC, which isn't a topology. So that's where I don't like it.

Now you have the Class N stuff I posted from Nuforce doing the same, you could actually spend a few years working on a very good class d amp design, try to get it patented though, it already exists and you didn't know it because they called it class N and your searches didn't turn that up.

So in a world where things are confusing enough, why add to it?

Let's redefine "class" as it stands today, while before it was on conduction angle/level of bias, today its' anything the markerting department say's. I choose not to agree with that.

The ultimate fear is that this becomes accepted as a class due to ignorance and common usage. Maybe this thread has a purpose after all :)
 
"The ultimate fear is that this becomes accepted as a class due to ignorance and common usage."

That won't happen here - a heated debate is a good thing, as long as you learn, give each other a pat in the back and have a Beer or Martini afterwords.

"Maybe this thread has a purpose after all "

Ofcourse it does.

"Bachiano the Fool"

:clown:
 
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