anyone know anything about the new class d from Halcro called Lyrus? - diyAudio
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Old 22nd January 2005, 07:16 PM   #1
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Default anyone know anything about the new class d from Halcro called Lyrus?

Saw this recently and wondered if anyone knows more about it?

http://www.halcro.com/logic/lyrus.asp
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Old 23rd January 2005, 09:33 PM   #2
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Hello der,

Well well this is interesting. They make some mighty big claims don't they? "We're the first to be the best" blaaaaah blaaah blaaaaaah.

Section 30 of their patent:

"I have discovered that it is possible to modulate the slopes of the carrier reference signal in proportion to the derivative of the input signal"

Between the lines: (with the use of a DSP to generate the clock and not use a self oscillating design or post filter feedback as an attempt to circumvent Mueta's patent)

Basically it looks like they went to a whole lot of effort to try and step around Mueta.

They use a DSP to create a central derivative to modulate the carrier with.

It doesn't use post filter feedback, but they didn't rule it out the possibility of it either (Mueta).

The whole thing looks overly complicated, how good can it be they give no specs or anything, though it probably sounds decent.

http://v3.espacenet.com/origdoc?DB=E...N=WO2004073161

The claims on the patent are hilarious.

Shame on them.

Regards
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Old 24th January 2005, 01:19 AM   #3
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Hi,

I might have been a little hard on them, that patent got to me, they seem to keep referencing elements in the schematic that aren't shown, and showing elements that aren't referenced, very annoying.

I still think it's all to get out from under Mueta's patent though, and it is amusing to read. Clearly Mueta were the first to use the derivative of the signal as any kind of set point/reference, to not even mention them as prior art seems like an unbelievable claim to ignorance, while the unusual "disclaimer" of prior art/background in section 10 seems like an admission of guilt? aaaaaaaah well, all the same, good to know about another new amp

Regards
Chris
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Old 24th January 2005, 10:51 PM   #4
KBK is offline KBK  Canada
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Just be aware that in the high end audio world, there are shysters,and there are real, thnking, inventive people. In that world, when and if one issues a patent, many of the components needed to make that item work or operate properly are NOT in the patent. The patent is only half the story. The trick,and it can be difficult.. is to tell the difference between the real people and the ones who are full of it.

All the little innovations that are 'wisdom' are kept to the self, and never released. Distraction is also a viable and correct method of keeping thought out of people you don't need or want contemplating the subject. As a friend of mine recently said, "they think that you are nuts, over there on that forum? Good, that's the best you can hope for".
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Old 25th January 2005, 04:51 AM   #5
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Hi,

Patents need to provide enough information so that one skilled in the arts may reproduce the invention. Since you can't patent an idea in itself, but a method to implement the idea, the embodiment, I fail to see how they were able to get that passed when so many references to the sole embodiment provided are missing. Seems like they didn't even bother to read it. When crucial information is left out, it is _left out_. Then again if the proper operation depends on this left out information, their patent could easily be stolen as an improvement to the original, or simply by claiming the original didn't work.

As far as distraction goes, providing enough misinformation to lead one down the wrong path can't be used with patents or they'll wind up with a useless patent that doesn't protect their invention. That can only be used in place of a patent. You can see on their website the level of information provided about the workings of this amp is zero. I don't think they want to be advertising "We've invented using the derivative as a setpoint".

In any document, certainly a legal one, when you reference anything in the text it better be there or it's meaningless, like in the example (1a.) I've attached to further clarify my point.

Anyway I'd like to know what others opinions of this amplifier are.


Regards
Chris
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Old 25th January 2005, 09:13 AM   #6
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Quote:
As far as distraction goes, providing enough misinformation to lead one down the wrong path can't be used with patents or they'll wind up with a useless patent that doesn't protect their invention.
That could indeed be dangerous since anyone else who comes up with the same idea might then

1.) just use it if he feels to do so and
2.) get a patent for it (even worse).

IMO there are enough known methods nowadays to build good sounding class-d amps. Halcro's idea might get some slight improvement.
The main problem with class-d amps is to build a good one in PRACTICE because the switching devices are far from the desired ideal (becoming an attractive market recently this is improving however) and also because switching amps are an "EMC-hell".

I do not doubt however, that the Halcro people are capable of building a decent class-d amp, even though their "exclusive detail improvement" might only play a minor role in achieving this.

Regards

Charles
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Old 25th January 2005, 02:58 PM   #7
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Quote:
IMO there are enough known methods nowadays to build good sounding class-d amps. Halcro's idea might get some slight improvement.
Sure, slight improvement, but to what? In the patent they discussed old amps with no feedback, not Mueta or anything like it. I notice Tripath and Mueta are unmentioned.

Quote:
I do not doubt however, that the Halcro people are capable of building a decent class-d amp, even though their "exclusive detail improvement" might only play a minor role in achieving this.
I agree. I also think their patent has a few good ideas, I'm not sure they invented them though. It doesn't claim to be novel, in fact it seems to warn against it.

I would think they likely do have a fine product, comparable to other decent class d's, for all their added complexity.


Regards
chris
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Old 25th January 2005, 03:18 PM   #8
SteveA is offline SteveA  United States
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"many of the components needed to make that item work or operate properly are NOT in the patent. "

I can't comment on the degree of innovation of the design, my electronics knowledge is limited. This statement, however, is not likely to be accurate. To obtain a patent (something with which I am familiar) one is obligated to disclose best mode.

Halcro would have two options in light of the patent. License it(the Muetta patent I believe was refered to) if the patent holder was agreeable. Or invent around the patent. This is the beauty of the patent system, IMO.

SteveA
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Old 26th January 2005, 06:12 PM   #9
soren is offline soren  Denmark
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Quote:
Originally posted by classd4sure

Clearly Mueta were the first to use the derivative of the signal as any kind of set point/reference...
No, capacitor current feedback has been used in pror art to improve transient response. However, I haven't seent his type offeedback in a self oscillating modulator before the Mueta.
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Old 26th January 2005, 09:31 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by soren


No, capacitor current feedback has been used in pror art to improve transient response. However, I haven't seent his type offeedback in a self oscillating modulator before the Mueta.
I didn't mean for feedback though, I meant using the derivative as a reference to the error amp, which is the main part of Mueta's cap current feedback scheme.
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