At a loss... - Page 2 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Amplifiers > Class D

Class D Switching Power Amplifiers and Power D/A conversion

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 21st September 2004, 05:39 PM   #11
Account Disabled
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Send a message via AIM to classd4sure Send a message via MSN to classd4sure
Default Re: Commercial technology push

Quote:
Originally posted by Bakmeel
I see a different reason.

The quality criterium goes for all classes of amplifiers. A, AB, B, D, T, etcetera. One can build bad and good amps of all kinds, so forgte the criterium that "Class D" Amps sound better. I don't think that's valid.

Instead, look at the origin. Switchmode amps were originally designed for commercial purposes, as are all amps. Its us freak trying to copy and improve them. So the question is: why were class D amps developed in the first place? I see 3 explanations:

1) High Efficiency.
2) Compact.
3) CHEAP!

Because Switchmode amps can be integrated into one single chip, generating less heat and needing less power for the same output, large amps can be integrated into a single chip, with a minimum of external components. So all you need is a slab of silicium, which practically costs nothing. Large production quantities bring compact high-power amps to the public, and here is your money.

Why did they develop swithcmode amps? because there's money in them

Bouke
We do know that class T is not an actual class of amplifier, do we not?

Why is anything worth having worth producing? Sure, there's money in it, that's obvious, and so I don't think valide. You are correct, looking at it from a marketing standpoint.

The question is, however, what makes class D worthwhile in the first place, as an audio amplifier?

It simply has possibilities other topologies don't, which can mean far superior sound and at much higher power levels.

Class D has the potential to have near perfect linearity across the entire audio band while maintaining power levels not achievable otherwise.

So ideally, it's class A100.
  Reply With Quote
Old 21st September 2004, 06:11 PM   #12
Bakmeel is offline Bakmeel  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
Bakmeel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Quote:
Class D has the potential to have near perfect linearity across the entire audio band while maintaining power levels not achievable otherwise.
Apart from the fact that there's a lot to be done before this truly ideal amp is real, you are right about this one.

PA systems benefit from class D powerhouses, but these systems are quite a bit different cake than we have in our living room.

If I can build a perfecly linear class B amplifier (just to pick one) with around 200W output, and you build a perfectly linear class D amp with the same output, would we then still need to revert to the efficiency/size argument?

What use do I have with a 3 kW amp in my living room? Sonic preparation of milkshakes?

Or is class D actually the relief for PA systems, which do benefit from a linear high power amp.. ?

Bouke
__________________
More Power Igor! More Power!
  Reply With Quote
Old 21st September 2004, 06:36 PM   #13
rha61 is offline rha61  France
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: paris
Quote:
Originally posted by Bakmeel


Apart from the fact that there's a lot to be done before this truly ideal amp is real, you are right about this one.

PA systems benefit from class D powerhouses, but these systems are quite a bit different cake than we have in our living room.

If I can build a perfecly linear class B amplifier (just to pick one) with around 200W output, and you build a perfectly linear class D amp with the same output, would we then still need to revert to the efficiency/size argument?

What use do I have with a 3 kW amp in my living room? Sonic preparation of milkshakes?

Or is class D actually the relief for PA systems, which do benefit from a linear high power amp.. ?

Bouke

For me , the first very important reason is still the sound , no matter the efficiency
Because i listen to very good speakers in a very good room , i've spent a lot of time and money trying all kind of amps ( i need only 100w) , and the best amp i've ever connected on my speakers is the UCD180 , the good news is that it's very cheap

Alain
  Reply With Quote
Old 21st September 2004, 10:16 PM   #14
Account Disabled
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Send a message via AIM to classd4sure Send a message via MSN to classd4sure
Quote:
Originally posted by Bakmeel


If I can build a perfecly linear class B amplifier (just to pick one) with around 200W output, and you build a perfectly linear class D amp with the same output, would we then still need to revert to the efficiency/size argument?

What use do I have with a 3 kW amp in my living room? Sonic preparation of milkshakes?

Or is class D actually the relief for PA systems, which do benefit from a linear high power amp.. ?
Bouke
Big IF! Does your fantastic class B compete with a UCD module?

I think we'd revert to the "mine sounds better than yours" admittance. Don't worry I wouldn't rub size or cost into the wound at all.

As for a 3kW amp in house well, ever paint your windows shut? Have to replace shingles? Change a tile floor? Kill rats/cockroaches? Hmmmm Could probably use it to wash your clothes more efficiently.. Vibrating bed.. Automatic Random Furniture and Dish Re-Arranger (patent pending), don't make me go on

Seriously it's a bit much but ~500w per channel leaves you wanting for nothing, depends on the place. Excellent home theatre too I might add. Better to have too much than not enough yes? Good amps in that range are both few, and
~$$, $$$.$$
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2004, 11:11 AM   #15
Bakmeel is offline Bakmeel  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
Bakmeel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Quote:
Big IF! Does your fantastic class B compete with a UCD module?
I wouldn't know... I never built a class B amp, nor have I ever heard a UCD module. I mean to say that for now, it's equally hard to build a perfectly linear class D amp, then it is to build it class B.

But the thing is.. we're comparing goats to cows here... Both give milk, but they are quite different animals I don't really like goatsmilk, to be honest

I myself actually favour Class A amps, but you appearantly better like the class D sound... And hey, John Doe would better want a class B in his living room. That story goes for all of us, and that is why a perfect amp will never exist; everyone has a different taste of sound quality. So in the end, I would be happy to have class D amps in the house as well as class A, B, etc.

So if the quality argument is personal for all of us... Can we then justify the development of Class D as something like an extra choice in the collection of amps?

Bouke
__________________
More Power Igor! More Power!
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2004, 12:19 PM   #16
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, BC
Default so what?

Bakmeel,

So you come to a class D forum just to declare that you prefer class A to class D, even though you have not heard a class D amp before?

Apart from the fact that discussing class A vs class D in these terms is a bit pointless (there are excellent and there are crappy class A amps; the same could be said of class D amps), people here are simply saying that they find a particular type of class D amp (UcD) to be better than many other (class D, Ab, whatever) amps. And that well-designed class D amps can sound excellent, and cost relatively little money in terms of purchse cost and electricity bills (nice for those of us who are of an ecological persuasion...).

Nobody is going to force you to own a class D amp. Peace, man!

Goliardo
__________________
Music is the best!
(Frank Zappa, Joe's Garage)
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2004, 12:31 PM   #17
Account Disabled
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Send a message via AIM to classd4sure Send a message via MSN to classd4sure
Quote:
nor have I ever heard a UCD
Neither have I to be honest but I soon intend to.

Quote:
I don't really like goatsmilk
I trust you've at least tried goatsmilk before you condemned it?
Tastes like the farm doesn't it? )

I'm sure, as the reasonable person you seem to be, would do the same for class d amps, not just the "boomers" for car audio either but the decent full range ones.

They aren't what they used to be, and there's a good chance you'll find yourself having a new preference, don't just say you don't like them because you're afraid of change or going against the grain.

It's probably harder to build a good class d amp, thankfully we can buy them cheap

I agree with a lot your points however.

Personally, an issue of mine is that class A just doesn't have the power I'm after. If you forget efficiency for a second, and just look at quality for the dollar, it's easy to see the one alternative I'm left with.

The average man's affordable amp is pure garbage, and I am really displeased with them. People really pay for garbage when it comes to audio, all those flashing lights blind them from the inflated price tags. Seems people could care less what they had to endure listening to, and most just don't know any better, the audio industry largely are a pack of wolves who thrive on it.

Honestly I feel if you want high quality at a reasonable price, you really only have one choice, and it's not a choice we had all that long ago either, so yeah I'm happy for it, just spreading the news

Someone has to, classd.org just keeled over and died, it hasnt' been updated in the longest time anyway..

You likely have the best answer for the "why class d" question, it "is" an alternative.

Btw, say in 5 years, class d will have fully infested the market because they are so cheap to produce and getting better in quality all the time. They wont' be able to make anything else and stay competitive. Anyone wanting a different type of amp will be hitting yard sales and antic shops with the tube guys, so you may as well come to the dark side now, while you can do it with dignity.

Cheers
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2004, 02:41 PM   #18
ghemink is offline ghemink  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Japan
Quote:
Originally posted by Bakmeel

I wouldn't know... I never built a class B amp, nor have I ever heard a UCD module. I mean to say that for now, it's equally hard to build a perfectly linear class D amp, then it is to build it class B.

But the thing is.. we're comparing goats to cows here... Both give milk, but they are quite different animals I don't really like goatsmilk, to be honest

I myself actually favour Class A amps, but you appearantly better like the class D sound... And hey, John Doe would better want a class B in his living room. That story goes for all of us, and that is why a perfect amp will never exist; everyone has a different taste of sound quality. So in the end, I would be happy to have class D amps in the house as well as class A, B, etc.

So if the quality argument is personal for all of us... Can we then justify the development of Class D as something like an extra choice in the collection of amps?

Bouke


Hello Bouke,

As another Dutchman on this board, I have only one thing to say: I did not want this UcD180 module to sound better than my $4000 Accuphase E407 integrated amp (considered high-end by many). But the simple fact is that it does sound better and not by a small margin. In fact, my experience with all Class D amps that I have had in my living room this far (Tripath based Marantz, ZAPpulse and UcD180) that all 3 of them sound better than the Accuphase. Both the UcD180 and the ZAPpulse are better sounding than the Marantz.

My reason to switch to Class D is not based on cost, size or whatever, purely based on sound quality.

I hope you really get a chance to compare a UcD based system with any conventional amp. I`m quite sure you will be surpirised.

Best regards

Gertjan
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2004, 05:19 PM   #19
Bakmeel is offline Bakmeel  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
Bakmeel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Goliardo, Ghemink,

Don't get me wrong here. I never intended to say that Class D is bad and/or Class A is better. If we started thát discussion, it would surely end up in a serious fight with moderators binning the lot of us. That is why I want to avoid the "It sounds better" aspect in this discussion. It is too personal for all of us.

The term "quality" should not be mistaken with "it sounds better". Quality has a broad definition, but if we want a clear definition of quality, don't start about how it sounds. If you tell me that your amp sounds great, I'm prefectly happy for you. But does that make an amp "better"?

So here I am, never ever heard a Class D amp, (do actually intend to build one soon), and I find this very interesting question "why class D?". And since I like a good discussion, here I am

So, back on topic:
Classd4sure, I'm right behind you. Class D is here because it is the market for the masses that demands it. It is also here, because it gives us more choice on what to buy or build. And last but not least, it is here because it sometimes IS quite handy to have kilowatts of power in a small box.

But I don't think all other classes are doomed. At least, not while there are still enthusiasts buying and making them. Like the single ended class A, like tube amps, like Vinyl records. They just don't want to die, and that is a good thing

Merry Christmas!


Oh BTW: classd4sure, Have you ever tried goatscheese? Now thát tastes gooood
__________________
More Power Igor! More Power!
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd September 2004, 01:24 AM   #20
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, BC
Bakmeel,

The thread started because cunningham had questions about the use of class D for audio amps, apart from the obvious benefit of efficiency.

Few members replied that in addition to efficiency and cost, sound quality is is another reason. Some forum members said that class D amps sound better than amps of other typologies, other members simply sound that sound quality can be excellent.

At this point you jumped in and argued that amps of any class can sound good (which I agree with, but I do not think that previous posts had argued that class D is inherently superior) and that the only reason is money.

Most people would agree with that money and cost/efficiency are among the reasons. But, member replied for the second time, sound quality is also very good. So, the argument went, the advantage is great sound AND cost/efficiency. If you really wanted to have a meaningful discussion, rather then picking arguments, you might have left it at that.

Instead, you followed up by saying that one can build any class amp to sound good, and that it is just a matter of preference (you prefer class A, which people may or may not like to know), and why would we bother with efficiency.

It is both the selective mode of your replies (i.e., just picking on things you could argue about), and ignoring other points (that the advantage of class D amplifiers is that they sound great, and can cost much less for similar sound quality) that makes me think this is not the way to have a meaningful discussion .

This is why I find your claim that you just want to have "a good discussion" rather disingenuous. I do not think there is anything more to discuss (in fact, the summary-cum-conclusion at the end of your message seems to imply just that). And let's leave Christmas and goat cheeses to where they belong...

Ciao,
Goliardo
__________________
Music is the best!
(Frank Zappa, Joe's Garage)
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Energy Loss ChocoHolic Parts 161 22nd October 2006 01:16 PM
tragic loss of mdf... nerd of nerds Multi-Way 11 26th February 2005 01:08 AM
Loss Of Sound Docc25 Car Audio 0 24th February 2005 06:39 AM
NEED HELP NOW! reg. loss in induktor. TroelsM Class D 2 6th January 2005 11:20 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:00 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2