Hi all,
First, let me start by saying, I am only trying to elaborate what I would like to accomplish, if any of what I say seems ignorant or impossible, it is only due simply to my ignorance.
I'm curious exactly what can be done from a simple buy and assembly of components. I'm not an electrical engineer, I couldn't know where to begin to design a schematic anything but a simple transistor based amplifier for headphones or desk speakers on a nine volt battery, but I can follow schematics.
Essentially, what I would like to do is compile a set of working schematics for a DC-DC converter circuit to up the voltage from a car battery (if this is viable) and an amplification circuit that can push a continuous 1600 watts into a 2 ohm impedance without frying. I wouldn't need a low pass filter, because the head unit already handles that before sending it down the RCA cables. I'm not entirely worried about a subsonic filter either, as my current amp doesn't have this.
The reason:
I am tired of cheap, rushed junk. I have a Visonik amplifier that I bought as part of a set with two 12" speakers in a box with wiring for 120 bucks altogether. The only component I'm still using from that setup today is the amplifier. It was obviously built by hand (I've opened it up and checked out the circuitry, solder joints, etc.) and had some effort and a little QC behind it. This thing is still pounding and currently pushing 2 12" 800wrms Pyle subwoofers. Do I stress it's abilities a little bit? Sure. Does it shut off from thermal overload? After a 30 mile trip of constant push yes, yes it does, but the damn thing KEEPS WORKING.
I bought a Boss CXXD2800 to replace it and it died within 5 days... Keep in mind I don't have an oscilloscope, but I tune for AC voltage against the square root of watts*ohms. Even then I tune at 3/4 head unit volume and never turn the head unit that high anyway, and when I tune the gain based on the amp based on AC voltage, I always turn it a little lower than the number I calculated based on the SR(watts*ohms) that I figure.
I got a replacement and it started smoking upon power up before I ever started setting the gain. I had the speakers wired both times for a 2ohm impedance, the amplifier claimed it was stable down to 1 ohm. Both time's after they died I hooked that Visonik right back up and everything was gravy.
I also have NO idea how cost effective building my own amplifier would be, so before anyone reaches that point, again, realize I'm very ignorant most aspects of this field. I'm tired of buying Chinese-made junk and being disappointed when it fails on me. If it's any kind of realistic to build my own in this way, then I'd rather... and when/if something fails in it, I know exactly where to look to see what went wrong and be able to fix it on the cheap.
I appreciate everyone's help in advance! Thanks for reading!
First, let me start by saying, I am only trying to elaborate what I would like to accomplish, if any of what I say seems ignorant or impossible, it is only due simply to my ignorance.
I'm curious exactly what can be done from a simple buy and assembly of components. I'm not an electrical engineer, I couldn't know where to begin to design a schematic anything but a simple transistor based amplifier for headphones or desk speakers on a nine volt battery, but I can follow schematics.
Essentially, what I would like to do is compile a set of working schematics for a DC-DC converter circuit to up the voltage from a car battery (if this is viable) and an amplification circuit that can push a continuous 1600 watts into a 2 ohm impedance without frying. I wouldn't need a low pass filter, because the head unit already handles that before sending it down the RCA cables. I'm not entirely worried about a subsonic filter either, as my current amp doesn't have this.
The reason:
I am tired of cheap, rushed junk. I have a Visonik amplifier that I bought as part of a set with two 12" speakers in a box with wiring for 120 bucks altogether. The only component I'm still using from that setup today is the amplifier. It was obviously built by hand (I've opened it up and checked out the circuitry, solder joints, etc.) and had some effort and a little QC behind it. This thing is still pounding and currently pushing 2 12" 800wrms Pyle subwoofers. Do I stress it's abilities a little bit? Sure. Does it shut off from thermal overload? After a 30 mile trip of constant push yes, yes it does, but the damn thing KEEPS WORKING.
I bought a Boss CXXD2800 to replace it and it died within 5 days... Keep in mind I don't have an oscilloscope, but I tune for AC voltage against the square root of watts*ohms. Even then I tune at 3/4 head unit volume and never turn the head unit that high anyway, and when I tune the gain based on the amp based on AC voltage, I always turn it a little lower than the number I calculated based on the SR(watts*ohms) that I figure.
I got a replacement and it started smoking upon power up before I ever started setting the gain. I had the speakers wired both times for a 2ohm impedance, the amplifier claimed it was stable down to 1 ohm. Both time's after they died I hooked that Visonik right back up and everything was gravy.
I also have NO idea how cost effective building my own amplifier would be, so before anyone reaches that point, again, realize I'm very ignorant most aspects of this field. I'm tired of buying Chinese-made junk and being disappointed when it fails on me. If it's any kind of realistic to build my own in this way, then I'd rather... and when/if something fails in it, I know exactly where to look to see what went wrong and be able to fix it on the cheap.
I appreciate everyone's help in advance! Thanks for reading!
Class d is a mine field for beginners to build their own from scratch.
It is very fussy about pcb layout and decoupling.
I would recommend buying a kit or going the IRAUDAMP route which even supplies pcb layout.
Not sure if you are unlucky with previous amplifiers. Maybe they just weren't very well designed (back to my first point)
Amps shouldn't be blowing up under normal use.
It is very fussy about pcb layout and decoupling.
I would recommend buying a kit or going the IRAUDAMP route which even supplies pcb layout.
Not sure if you are unlucky with previous amplifiers. Maybe they just weren't very well designed (back to my first point)
Amps shouldn't be blowing up under normal use.
LOL, 1600W from car battery. 1600Watts from anything on the cheap? No wonder you don't like the sound. DIY audio is NOT cost effective...trust me. ;-D
The issues with class-D is you are working in frequencies that are very difficult to master without proper knowledge in that area. Roughly you can say at lower frequencies , say below 100kHz, we follow Ohm's law, above 10MHz it goes into transmissionline theories. In between it is a nasty mix, and knowledge, experience, and good lab equipment becomes relatively more important.
The best options for easy to build, no nonsense, diy audio is probably found in Pass Labs forum. But you wont find silly power there, just good sound.
The issues with class-D is you are working in frequencies that are very difficult to master without proper knowledge in that area. Roughly you can say at lower frequencies , say below 100kHz, we follow Ohm's law, above 10MHz it goes into transmissionline theories. In between it is a nasty mix, and knowledge, experience, and good lab equipment becomes relatively more important.
The best options for easy to build, no nonsense, diy audio is probably found in Pass Labs forum. But you wont find silly power there, just good sound.
Hi,
Pragmatism in a car set up is the key to reality.
You can't DIY class D with no real idea.
Most class D is bridged and anything below 4 ohm
as a load is asking for trouble in real reality, as each
bridge will see 2ohms, 2 ohm load 1 ohm, and
the power losses in the output devices severe.
1.6KW in a car ? Get realistic, that is ridiculous.
Quality stuff with real numbers in the way to go.
rgds, sreten.
Pragmatism in a car set up is the key to reality.
You can't DIY class D with no real idea.
Most class D is bridged and anything below 4 ohm
as a load is asking for trouble in real reality, as each
bridge will see 2ohms, 2 ohm load 1 ohm, and
the power losses in the output devices severe.
1.6KW in a car ? Get realistic, that is ridiculous.
Quality stuff with real numbers in the way to go.
rgds, sreten.
Semper, what about the alternators? The battery on its own isn't capable indeed.
I agree with the irrealistic goal. If you would drop to, say 400 watt, you would lose a mere 6db. Probably even less due to power compression. Heck, even 10-15 watt (HU power for example) with the right speakers would go unpleasantly loud.
I agree with the irrealistic goal. If you would drop to, say 400 watt, you would lose a mere 6db. Probably even less due to power compression. Heck, even 10-15 watt (HU power for example) with the right speakers would go unpleasantly loud.
A 12V powered class D amplifier capable of putting out a kW or more worth of power isn't a simple project.
Class D section shouldn't be that bad if you copy an IRAUDAMP or similar design. But the main challenge you'll face is power supply design - you'll need to be good at parts selection, magnetics design, thermal design, compensation, and verification... or you'll need to find another amplifier and make a very good copy of it, but still test test test.
Oh, and ordering a sheet-of-paper-sized PCB with 2 ounce or heavier copper is going to be very expensive. So will heavy terminal blocks.
Personally I'd figure out why your existing amp is overheating. How well ventilated is it?
Class D section shouldn't be that bad if you copy an IRAUDAMP or similar design. But the main challenge you'll face is power supply design - you'll need to be good at parts selection, magnetics design, thermal design, compensation, and verification... or you'll need to find another amplifier and make a very good copy of it, but still test test test.
Oh, and ordering a sheet-of-paper-sized PCB with 2 ounce or heavier copper is going to be very expensive. So will heavy terminal blocks.
Personally I'd figure out why your existing amp is overheating. How well ventilated is it?
Not to be too discouraging, but:
1600W output @ 85% efficiency needs a power supply of 1882W.
1882W from a DC-DC converter @85% efficiency needs 2214W from the car.
At 13.6V is 162A. (alternator power)
(if you could get 90% efficiency in each you would still need 145A.)
Current would be more if only on battery at 12V.
1600W output @ 85% efficiency needs a power supply of 1882W.
1882W from a DC-DC converter @85% efficiency needs 2214W from the car.
At 13.6V is 162A. (alternator power)
(if you could get 90% efficiency in each you would still need 145A.)
Current would be more if only on battery at 12V.
Are you kidding?
I was stumbling through google looking for something unrelated when I found this post.I must add, 1600W RMS in a car is quite simple, and not too expensive if you look in the right place. check out
Bass Clef Series BC2000D
I have one in my 2006 VW GTI. Two batteries, 0G wires to feed the amp, and a big 3 upgrade (google will suffice there) is all you need. i have been running a BC2000 for years on a 1 ohm stable load. with two 10" subs in a tuned box at 3 cu/ft I'm making 140+DB.
I was stumbling through google looking for something unrelated when I found this post.I must add, 1600W RMS in a car is quite simple, and not too expensive if you look in the right place. check out
Bass Clef Series BC2000D
I have one in my 2006 VW GTI. Two batteries, 0G wires to feed the amp, and a big 3 upgrade (google will suffice there) is all you need. i have been running a BC2000 for years on a 1 ohm stable load. with two 10" subs in a tuned box at 3 cu/ft I'm making 140+DB.
The pleasant thing is that music has a high ratio between instantanous power and average power.
When you place something like 4F caps right at the amp, then the stress for the battery and alternator will remain reasonable even when driving a 1.6kW amp into clipping and the supply voltage at the amp will not sag to bad. The very high peak currents then will only circulate in the caps and the amp. With such caps also the long supply wire(s) between battery and amp can be chosen in a reasonable size. Something like 35mm² supply wires will already do the job and the fusing for the wiring at the battery side can be reduced to approx. 1/4 of the fusing which you will find at the amp itself.
I cannot comment on the amps which Gizmo proposed.
For sure there are multiple powerful amps available in the market, unfortunately there is even more scrap which is being marketed with pure lies.
Personally I am using an Alpine PDX-M12 and was positively surprised that their stated power of 1.2kW into 4R was correct.
DIYing such an amp? Possible, but you really would need indepth background and years of experience. And most likely the design phase would cost more than simply buying it.
When you place something like 4F caps right at the amp, then the stress for the battery and alternator will remain reasonable even when driving a 1.6kW amp into clipping and the supply voltage at the amp will not sag to bad. The very high peak currents then will only circulate in the caps and the amp. With such caps also the long supply wire(s) between battery and amp can be chosen in a reasonable size. Something like 35mm² supply wires will already do the job and the fusing for the wiring at the battery side can be reduced to approx. 1/4 of the fusing which you will find at the amp itself.
I cannot comment on the amps which Gizmo proposed.
For sure there are multiple powerful amps available in the market, unfortunately there is even more scrap which is being marketed with pure lies.
Personally I am using an Alpine PDX-M12 and was positively surprised that their stated power of 1.2kW into 4R was correct.
DIYing such an amp? Possible, but you really would need indepth background and years of experience. And most likely the design phase would cost more than simply buying it.
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...some more details...
Using a small fuse for the wiring asks for an additional diode, in order
to avoid large currents in the fuse during cranking.
I never tried it without diode, but theory tells that you would need a fat fuse
without that diode, because without diode some portion of the cranking currents would also be delivered from the caps and not just from the battery.
Personally I prefer wirings which do not need extreme fusing,
simply for safety reasons. Arcing energy at any potential defect of the wiring increases overproportional with the fuse rating and so does the risk of fire.
Attached a schematic of my installation.
Using a small fuse for the wiring asks for an additional diode, in order
to avoid large currents in the fuse during cranking.
I never tried it without diode, but theory tells that you would need a fat fuse
without that diode, because without diode some portion of the cranking currents would also be delivered from the caps and not just from the battery.
Personally I prefer wirings which do not need extreme fusing,
simply for safety reasons. Arcing energy at any potential defect of the wiring increases overproportional with the fuse rating and so does the risk of fire.
Attached a schematic of my installation.
Attachments
One certainly shouldn't be commoning up the speakers to drive them from a single amp - that's a poor aim. Multiple speakers, with multiple amps, is the way to go - check out those esoteric SPL'er competitors.
A dual battery system with upgraded alternator, as per serious off-road 4x4, will also place the immediate power source (2nd larger battery) local to the amps. The 2nd battery isolation is usually done with low-loss FET switching, so that there is no back-feed and little power loss.
A dual battery system with upgraded alternator, as per serious off-road 4x4, will also place the immediate power source (2nd larger battery) local to the amps. The 2nd battery isolation is usually done with low-loss FET switching, so that there is no back-feed and little power loss.
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