Hi guys, I am asking this to people who have had experiences with class-T amps.
Which brand and model according to you has the most revealing, brutally honest and detailed nature ?
I am actually looking for T-amps for studio applications and would love to have an amp which produces a very honest representation of a mix.
Something which sounds great with a great mix but which blatantly reveals the flaws of a bad mix.
Thanks in advance!!
Brutally honest and detailed in nature, just like Autotune eh?
The recording industry is now is being kept barely alive by releasing 40+ year old material.
One would hope that the $900 amp would beat the $200 amp handily or you didn't do enough research before buying! I do like the TP60 and have recommended it to people looking to get their feet wet and move up from the standard entry level consumer garbage that's being spewed out by some of the large manufacturers. The Khartago looks like a nice unit. It's intriguing enough for me to spend some time looking into it more. Any complaints?
The Khartago is a wonderful amplifier and I have no problem recommending it to anyone. Vacuum tube people may find it too edgy with some brighter speakers. It has lots of dynamic punch especially with a large aftermarket power cord. It sounds like real music with good recordings.The TP60 is a fine amplifier but given the topic of this thread, my gut feeling is that the OP might be wiser looking at the Texas Instruments TPA3116D2 evaluation module. People here and elsewhere seem pretty excited about the more recent developments of TI in digital amplification technology. It could be that my beloved Khartago may very quickly become an obsolete dinosaur even though it almost take 2 men to lift it.
I found that Class-D amps based on International Rectifier IRS2092 are extremely accurate. Check out the CDA line of amps from classduadio (made in USA) or connex.
But, I also have experience with Tripath hifimediy amps that sound wonderful.
I'm sure Hypex amps are good, although too expensive for my taste.
Hi
My small pennies worth - i have spent many (early) years as a studio engineer and never had the pleasure of using Tripath amp technology for monitoring or mixing. Most engineers will know what is good for monitoring etc is not necessarily any sort of hifi set up in the ordinary sense. Take the ND10s speakers as an example they are not flat (without good EQ!!) - but they are not echoic, not flabby and allow you to 'feel' the relative levels of instruments in the sound stage which translates well to other types of speaker set ups. In many of cases mixes from NS10s (and other speakers) have an overall multiband EQ etc used at mastering to iron out its flaws in the less than flat department.
As far as amps go I think a T amp could work well in this situation but I would go for a high powered one like suggested before Tristan TA3020 Amplifier-Maedos - those of us that believe in the Tripath magic will know that it mostly manifests itself at medium volumes (up to about 80%) - to check the tonal content and dynamics of individual instruments you need to get them loud at times so you don't want any distortion from the amp changing the colour for you... plenty of headroom does create better mixes in my experience.
T amps are not the b all and end all... but for sound quality for buck I have not found anything close... buy a cheap DAC - add a valve buffer finish with a T amp (all pretty cheap on ebay) - compare to stuff costing many times as much - a DIYer on a budgets dream in my opinion...you can get a very good and accurate sound for little - pay a lot more and you can do much better but the gap is wide I think.
Enough - good luck with it all...
Ported
My small pennies worth - i have spent many (early) years as a studio engineer and never had the pleasure of using Tripath amp technology for monitoring or mixing. Most engineers will know what is good for monitoring etc is not necessarily any sort of hifi set up in the ordinary sense. Take the ND10s speakers as an example they are not flat (without good EQ!!) - but they are not echoic, not flabby and allow you to 'feel' the relative levels of instruments in the sound stage which translates well to other types of speaker set ups. In many of cases mixes from NS10s (and other speakers) have an overall multiband EQ etc used at mastering to iron out its flaws in the less than flat department.
As far as amps go I think a T amp could work well in this situation but I would go for a high powered one like suggested before Tristan TA3020 Amplifier-Maedos - those of us that believe in the Tripath magic will know that it mostly manifests itself at medium volumes (up to about 80%) - to check the tonal content and dynamics of individual instruments you need to get them loud at times so you don't want any distortion from the amp changing the colour for you... plenty of headroom does create better mixes in my experience.
T amps are not the b all and end all... but for sound quality for buck I have not found anything close... buy a cheap DAC - add a valve buffer finish with a T amp (all pretty cheap on ebay) - compare to stuff costing many times as much - a DIYer on a budgets dream in my opinion...you can get a very good and accurate sound for little - pay a lot more and you can do much better but the gap is wide I think.
Enough - good luck with it all...
Ported
I just came back across this thread... I wouldn't consider myself a hard-core audiophile, but I like music and good sound. Several years ago I was introduced to the new ICEPower modules used in Pioneer's Elite line of HT receivers. I had a chance to pick up a brand new one for half-price. I was simply amazed at the the overall sonic quality of the sound. Everything I played through it - on relatively very inexpensive bookshelf speakers at the time - was silky smooth and rich sounding. Full of body and depth is about the only way I can describe it. It was, and remains the most expensive piece of commercial audio gear I own. I have since built a lot of different amps from AB to class D and T, and none of them can match the richness of the ICEPower amp sound. Today the Pioneer is at the heart of my HT and is paired with some Energy RC-30 floor standers and sound every bit as good.
One of audio DIY goals is to build a stereo amp rig using the ICEPower modules.
Rick
Completely agree with this statement, and I would like to share my experience:
My system:
Along L15D
Connexelectronic input power
hifimediy DAC (to my PC)
Chinese matisse buffer clone
ATLAS signal cables
No significant updates on this system.
I think I have a $200- $400 system, and very upgradable...
I didn't have the opportunity to directly compare with another amp at home,
but a month ago, I went to a electronic superstore, it sells amplifiers like denon, marantz, yamaha....
There was a sound of a +2000€ system in demonstration.
I ask the seller where was the HIFI +2000€ sound system as I could only ear detailess sound, and poor spacial sound.
the seller's face began to be white....
The class D , or T DIY amp modules, or completed small amps for that matter available from China today, offer a very good price/performance ratio and sound quality. There will always be the naysayers and purists who thumb there noses at all the 'fakes' coming out of China and categorically dismis it as all junk, or not to be bothered with. But for most of us, these amps work and provide a level of quality that's very good for the $.
I'm going to give a shout-out to Cristi at Connexelectronic for the quality and workmanship of the products he offers. I have several SMPS and IRS2092 based amps modules that work and sound as expected. I've been very happy with the products I've purchased from him. He delivers the goods using quality parts too!
For the n00b members here, if you're just starting out and want to build your first amp... Start at the module level, pick a module from Cristi, or a couple LJM L15D, or L25D (if you need more power) modules available from along on eBay here, and either build a linear PSU or buy a suitable SMPS and you can build an amp that will sound great - with a reasonable pair of speakers.
Rick
But for most of us, these amps work and provide a level of quality that's very good for the $.I'm going to give a shout-out to Cristi at Connexelectronic for the quality and workmanship of the products he offers. I have several SMPS and IRS2092 based amps modules that work and sound as expected. I've been very happy with the products I've purchased from him. He delivers the goods using quality parts too!
For the n00b members here, if you're just starting out and want to build your first amp... Start at the module level, pick a module from Cristi, or a couple LJM L15D, or L25D (if you need more power) modules available from along on eBay here, and either build a linear PSU or buy a suitable SMPS and you can build an amp that will sound great - with a reasonable pair of speakers.
Rick
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I disagree!
Stay away from everything pre filter feedback unless you want to redesign the output filter every time you hook up a different speaker that has a different load impedance.
For the n00b starting out, the Hypex UcD modules gives way better value for money than anything else in the bare modules department, what i personally think is the highest value that money can buy is the ALC0100-2300 module from Abletec/Anaview(sold at profusionplc.com)
There you get two channels AND a integrated power supply so all you need to do is hook up a piece of mains cable with a plug in one end, a set of speakers and a input signal.
To make it all pretty, profusionplc.com also sells a wiring kit for these modules.
Why i promote these two manufacturers and help their sales is because they use the post filter feedback self oscillation (UcD) scheme which enables them to drive AND load impedance out there from half ohm car subwoofers to 600 ohm dj and studio reference headphones with no changes to anything, the frequency response remains nice and flat just like it should. This is called load INVARIABLE which is a HUGE advantage that outweights any of the advantages of pre filter feedback.
Once you got these, you never again want to look back toward the IRS2092 and such pre filter feedback delta sigma/hysteresis garbage with load DEPENDANT frequency response.
Stay away from everything pre filter feedback unless you want to redesign the output filter every time you hook up a different speaker that has a different load impedance.
For the n00b starting out, the Hypex UcD modules gives way better value for money than anything else in the bare modules department, what i personally think is the highest value that money can buy is the ALC0100-2300 module from Abletec/Anaview(sold at profusionplc.com)
There you get two channels AND a integrated power supply so all you need to do is hook up a piece of mains cable with a plug in one end, a set of speakers and a input signal.
To make it all pretty, profusionplc.com also sells a wiring kit for these modules.
Why i promote these two manufacturers and help their sales is because they use the post filter feedback self oscillation (UcD) scheme which enables them to drive AND load impedance out there from half ohm car subwoofers to 600 ohm dj and studio reference headphones with no changes to anything, the frequency response remains nice and flat just like it should. This is called load INVARIABLE which is a HUGE advantage that outweights any of the advantages of pre filter feedback.
Once you got these, you never again want to look back toward the IRS2092 and such pre filter feedback delta sigma/hysteresis garbage with load DEPENDANT frequency response.
I don't own any 4 ohm speakers so it's not a problem for me. But I get your point. Both Abletec and Hypex modules are more expensive than the LJM modules which may be a bigger factor of concern for someone on a more restricted budget. The Hypex NC400 module is over 10 x the price of the little LJM module at $30USD. Does it sound 10 x better? Wait. Don't answer that. The UcD180ST model is currently priced at $78USD + vat, so even it's priced 2.5 x the LJM. Don't get me wrong. I would love to build a couple of mono blocks with the NC400 modules, but right now funds don't permit for a $845+ investment in just the amp modules alone, say nothing of the PSU and enclosure costs.
I was careful to say a 'good' price/performance ratio. Not the best, or even the greatest. So for many applications they may be suited just fine.
Rick
Does it sound 10 x better? Wait. Don't answer that. The UcD180ST model is currently priced at $78USD + vat, so even it's priced 2.5 x the LJM. Don't get me wrong. I would love to build a couple of mono blocks with the NC400 modules, but right now funds don't permit for a $845+ investment in just the amp modules alone, say nothing of the PSU and enclosure costs.I was careful to say a 'good' price/performance ratio. Not the best, or even the greatest. So for many applications they may be suited just fine.
Rick
The LJM is cheaper because it is of lesser performance(pre filter feedback self oscillating aka hysteresis and delta sigma is in my opinion a design flaw/error wheres post filter feedback self oscillating aka UcD is self oscillating class d done right) and only uses average quality capacitors and possibly cheap fakes for transistors, gate drive ic's and mosfets.
Henche why some ppl experience problems with their L15D/L25D modules and others get them to work successfully.
And i can confirm the inductors used in the Sure 2x250W IRS2092 based class d are in fact defective, even in one of my UcD prototypes at just 2x22V rails, the inductor got noticably warm wheres the coilcraft toroids experience no detectable temp rise.
Henche why some ppl experience problems with their L15D/L25D modules and others get them to work successfully.
And i can confirm the inductors used in the Sure 2x250W IRS2092 based class d are in fact defective, even in one of my UcD prototypes at just 2x22V rails, the inductor got noticably warm wheres the coilcraft toroids experience no detectable temp rise.
I will agree with you about Sure. My first experience with one of their 2092 modules was a fail. It didn't go up in flames, but I had since learned that their quality is suspect, so when my failed I wasn't too surprised. I think I learned my lesson with them. So far, I had that one failure with an LJM module, but others are in service and sound fine - at least for pre-filter design.
I don't have enough hours on the Connexelectronic module yet so will reserve judgment on that one for the moment. Otherwise, I have nothing but high praise for the quality of Cristi's products whether pre-filter class D design or not, and his SMPS PSUs.Rick
P.s. I'll probably get around to trying one of the Abletec modules someday. They are little pricey too, but not outside the realm of possiblity.
For the moment I've got a move coming up. A basement to finish and HT to put in, and home office to construct and finish. I'm too busy for all this fun amp stuff!Sorry,
I don't really understand the issue with IRS2092 as I am not an Ingeneer.
The measurments posted by Trevmar on this forum demonstrate the low THD of the L20D module based on IRS2092.
So, what the issues if THD if excellent?
Are there other indicators to consider?
If yes, maybe it could be a good idea to identify these indicators and start a thread with indicators for DIY amplifier?
I don't really understand the issue with IRS2092 as I am not an Ingeneer.
The measurments posted by Trevmar on this forum demonstrate the low THD of the L20D module based on IRS2092.
So, what the issues if THD if excellent?
Are there other indicators to consider?
If yes, maybe it could be a good idea to identify these indicators and start a thread with indicators for DIY amplifier?
Tekko,
Thank you for pointing out the limitation of the design that Rejr mentioned.
However, for a noobie, those amp kits are great training sets. They are very inexpensive and they perform as expected "within the limitations".
Most people realized that the UcD modules are probably better. But I only have 40$ to spend !! Beside, I will never look at buying a UcD module as an investment. As a noobie, I just want to learn and accumulate as much knowledge and experience "as cheaply" as possible. As one progress with more knowledge, one will build more and more amps and left the old one behind. Why spend more "tuition fee" than than necessary. I do not mind spend more on a better soldering iron, DMM, scopes etc. but not something that I am using as a "experiment".
A Porche 911 will obviously be a higher perfomance machine than a Mustang GT, which definitely outgun a Civic SI. And most people that bought the 911 regard the Porche is better value for money than most cars!! What if I only have money for a Civic.
In summary, I think it is fine to get those kits that Redjr mentioned, as long as you known their limitations.
By the way, the LJM design is essentially the reference design (IRAMPAUDIO 7I think) that IR put out (someone please point it out if I am wrong). Are you saying that IR purposely put out an inferior reference design to showcase their components? Or IR does not know how to design a proper Class D amp?
Regards,
Not changing speakers very often
Quoting myself fom a different post : What's the big deal here. I have 8 ohm speakers for years now and will probably have them for another 20 years . My ( pre ) filter is designed for 8 ohms , so fine and flat response here, no roll off in the highs .If I ever buy new 4 ohm or whatever impedance speakers to replace my current ones with the same quality , I have to spend at least a couple of thousand dollars . Replacing my output filter with high quality inductors and caps to match the new speakers impedance will set me back at least 12 dollars per channel
Still waiting for some A & B test between the Hypex UCD and a quality IRS2092 , for instance a LJM L15D with some 5 Dollar cap upgrades .
Never heard the UCD modules , but did hear a lot of good amps and own a few very respectable class A/B and one class A amp and still impressed with the L15D , it's my favorite every day amp .
Cheers ,
Rens
Quoting myself fom a different post : What's the big deal here. I have 8 ohm speakers for years now and will probably have them for another 20 years . My ( pre ) filter is designed for 8 ohms , so fine and flat response here, no roll off in the highs .If I ever buy new 4 ohm or whatever impedance speakers to replace my current ones with the same quality , I have to spend at least a couple of thousand dollars . Replacing my output filter with high quality inductors and caps to match the new speakers impedance will set me back at least 12 dollars per channel
Still waiting for some A & B test between the Hypex UCD and a quality IRS2092 , for instance a LJM L15D with some 5 Dollar cap upgrades .
Never heard the UCD modules , but did hear a lot of good amps and own a few very respectable class A/B and one class A amp and still impressed with the L15D , it's my favorite every day amp .
Cheers ,
Rens
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