Hello! First, let me state that I am not a hardcore DIY'er. I am interested in good home audio, and have been researching Class D amps, both DIY and the retail (especially Behringer). It seems to me that for higher powered units, it has become very hard to beat retail Class D such as the Behringer "iNuke" line. This assumes of course, that the specs are honest 
I am old (50) school and use the "RMS watts" if shown, not the bridged-mono-peak ratings trumpeted by the coked marketing department 
I am intrigued enough that I bought a NU3000 that should be more than enough to power 4 Bose 901 II in a large room. Also it will be interesting to see how it compares to the Sunfire "300x2" it may replace.
I know that much of DIY is the joy of building something yourself. But, can anyone beat or even match the retail amps (such as Behringer) nowadays. Perhaps you DIY'er should be buying new and cannibilizing for parts? For example, by specs and my admittedly limited knowledge, I would guess the NU6000 is basically two bridged NU3000 (internally) for only $100 more in price.
I am old (50) school and use the "RMS watts" if shown, not the bridged-mono-peak ratings trumpeted by the coked marketing department I am intrigued enough that I bought a NU3000 that should be more than enough to power 4 Bose 901 II in a large room. Also it will be interesting to see how it compares to the Sunfire "300x2" it may replace.
I know that much of DIY is the joy of building something yourself. But, can anyone beat or even match the retail amps (such as Behringer) nowadays. Perhaps you DIY'er should be buying new and cannibilizing for parts? For example, by specs and my admittedly limited knowledge, I would guess the NU6000 is basically two bridged NU3000 (internally) for only $100 more in price.
Even if specs are honest, they tell almost nothing about what an amp sounds like. Behringer is all about cheap, cheap, cheap.
dave
Useful quote from Speakerplans about the NU3000;
These Behringer amps are the cheapest & probably the worst of the class D amps on the pro-audio market atm & certainly shouldn't be considered 'good home audio' unless you also consider things like Kenwood to be 'good home audio'. The iNukes are fine if you aren't overly concerned with sound quality & don't expect to get anywhere near the power output they claim.
If you want to see what 'proper' class D pro-audio amps look like, take a look at some amps from Powersoft, PKN Controls & Lab Gruppen. Matrix amps are pretty good for price/performance & very popular among soundsystems around Britain.
These Behringer amps are the cheapest & probably the worst of the class D amps on the pro-audio market atm & certainly shouldn't be considered 'good home audio' unless you also consider things like Kenwood to be 'good home audio'. The iNukes are fine if you aren't overly concerned with sound quality & don't expect to get anywhere near the power output they claim.
If you want to see what 'proper' class D pro-audio amps look like, take a look at some amps from Powersoft, PKN Controls & Lab Gruppen. Matrix amps are pretty good for price/performance & very popular among soundsystems around Britain.
If you want "Mainstream" then DIY is pointless and expensive.
DIY is all about building something special that will be your Nirvana.
Personally I built a Pass Aleph 4 clone. The original would cost you in excess of £10K. My DIY clone cost me less than £500.
Can you be bothered ? Its hard work. DIY results are also often not so aesthetically pleasing, but, there are ways to save an absolute fortune.
I always say, "take your ears shopping". at the end of the day you are buying something that you want to listen to, not what you want to look at.
DIY is all about building something special that will be your Nirvana.
Personally I built a Pass Aleph 4 clone. The original would cost you in excess of £10K. My DIY clone cost me less than £500.
Can you be bothered ? Its hard work. DIY results are also often not so aesthetically pleasing, but, there are ways to save an absolute fortune.
I always say, "take your ears shopping". at the end of the day you are buying something that you want to listen to, not what you want to look at.
I measured my IPR 3000 with 10 Hz sine wave and it meets its claimed power.
At least for a couple of seconds; I didn't want to fry my subs' voice coils.
The IPR 3000 also costs twice what the NU3000 costs, so you would expect it to fair a bit better
The IPR 3000 also costs twice what the NU3000 costs, so you would expect it to fair a bit better
It was less than $400, less than DIY.
Why not?
Your assertions of inferiority simply do not have any rational relation to the evidence you presented: an independent bench test showing that the amp will give in excess of 300W/ch/8Ω continuously, with peak power even higher, at a cost in the US of around $300 for the base amp and $400 for the amp with DSP; 2Ω performance really isn't relevant at home.
The IPR 3000 also costs twice what the NU3000 costs, so you would expect it to fair a bit better
The IPR3000 is also a fair bit more powerful. The IPR1600 and NU3000 are about the same price, and similarly powerful.
Now, there are rumors that the NU series are copies of the IPR's. I don't know if they are true. But both of them seem to offer lots of power at a very good price.
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Yes, to me there are some areas that it are stimulating and economically relevant to DIY. For my part High End speakers. They would otherwise be out of reach for me finacially.Amps? More doubt. I consider something like this for my subs: dB Technologies - HPA 2800 2x 1050 Watt / 4 Ohm Endstufe : Power amplifiers
My point was more to do with the fact that claiming 3kW into 4R bridge (as the Behringer website does) when in reality they can't sustain even half of that is a bit rich, even assuming a substantial crest factor as nearly all pro-audio amps' numbers do these days.
I'm not trying to say that units like the NU3000 aren't incredible value for money in terms of the amount of power you get for what you pay, nor am I trying to say that there are better units for the same money. I'm simply saying that you should accept them for what they are - as cheap as possible.
I've heard class D pro-audio amps covering the whole range of prices - Behringer at the bottom, Thomann's own stuff for a bit more, Matrix for a bit more again, then Lab & what not toward the top end. As with everything, you get what you pay for - the Behringer offer great bang for buck, but don't try to fool yourself into thinking that they are some hidden gem that swing above their class.
I'm not trying to say that units like the NU3000 aren't incredible value for money in terms of the amount of power you get for what you pay, nor am I trying to say that there are better units for the same money. I'm simply saying that you should accept them for what they are - as cheap as possible.
I've heard class D pro-audio amps covering the whole range of prices - Behringer at the bottom, Thomann's own stuff for a bit more, Matrix for a bit more again, then Lab & what not toward the top end. As with everything, you get what you pay for - the Behringer offer great bang for buck, but don't try to fool yourself into thinking that they are some hidden gem that swing above their class.
Thanks for the replies so far. The summary so far appears to be (correct me if wrong!)
1. DIY does indeed cost more than many retail units, at least at the low cost end.
2. The specifications claimed by the manufacturers tend to be inflated somewhat.
One thing I can say in favor of the cheap stuff (like Behringer) -- at least the end buyer is actually paying for mostly hardware, certainly not much in terms of cheap Chinese labor costs. I don't know what the mark-up is, but certainly less than the 100% typical in the so-called "high-end" audio market. Also, a substantial savings in R&D according to some cynics, as the design may have been "borrowed" from other manufacturers.
1. DIY does indeed cost more than many retail units, at least at the low cost end.
2. The specifications claimed by the manufacturers tend to be inflated somewhat.
One thing I can say in favor of the cheap stuff (like Behringer) -- at least the end buyer is actually paying for mostly hardware, certainly not much in terms of cheap Chinese labor costs. I don't know what the mark-up is, but certainly less than the 100% typical in the so-called "high-end" audio market. Also, a substantial savings in R&D according to some cynics, as the design may have been "borrowed" from other manufacturers.
That seems only to be true for Behringer.
A third-party test of the Peavey IPR-1600 showed it to be very close to rated power:
Measured: ~280W/1kHz/8.6Ω and ~460W/1kHz/4.5Ω
Claimed: 300W/1kHz/8.0Ω 530W/1kHz/4.0Ω
Correcting for the slightly higher resistance of the third-party test setup, we're talking de minimis differences here.
Again, that's just Behringer. And hearsay, at least for now. I don't think anyone has definitively shown that the iNukes are IPR knockoffs. Though there is a reasonable probability that they are. That Berry decided to basically "up-name" them (the IPR 1600 equivalent being NU3000, the IPR3000 equivalent being NU6000, etc.) is also on the tricky side of things.
Nobody claims that the Peavey IPR's, or Crown XLS DriveCores, are clones of anything.
However, the IPR's have other problems. They're astoundingly ugly (though they can be hidden). They have loud fans (though they're standard 12V computer fans that can be replaced with quieter models). My old IPR-3000 did not like running off of a signal-sensing power strip. Something in its circuitry interacted poorly, which made it a no-go for me as I'm not going to turn on my amps every time I use the system, nor am I going to waste power by leaving everything on. I expect everything to turn on from the listening position with the push of one button. So it didn't work for me. But it should work just fine for others.
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The devil is in the detail, most chips will be similar and quite often circitry is partly copied from data sheets. Where the finesse comes in is in the layout and what may seem like simple things such as connectors. Chips and passisves are cheep as chips! Mostly SMD these days in a lot of pro gear as assembly costs are minimal. Connectors, cable and anything that involves manual assembly is expensive, but compared to a lot of other components connectors are expensive, I have seen cheeper and cheeper connectors used, until you are afraid to move a unit incase you get a bad connection, on the mil/aero side some connectors are machined works of art with a price to match.
DIY can be cost effective, the biggest saving IMO are building your own speakers, by building your own cabinets you save can thousands. Analogue and simple digital layout is well within the means of a DIYer, and again good results can be achieved. PCBs and general electonics are reasonably priced, its when you come to enclosures and machining enclosures for connectors and switches that costs and difficulty come in, and then there is the ever increasing digital invasion into audio reproduction. Here I believe at the moment the DIYer is at a serious disadvantage, unless you are very well off or have the advantage of a tolerant workplace with the right equipement, DIYers are going to struggle as both complexity of devices (packaging BGA, QFN are designed for automated assembly, and pin count; 1000+pins on a BGA are not uncommen) and complexity of PCB construction (multilayer to handle the signal integrity of fast rise times), and testing the resulting circuitry, never mind firmware and software.
But at the end of the day its good fun, it keeps us occupied and debating! and keeps support for analogue reproduction (yang) going against the ever increasing digital influx (yin).
DIY can be cost effective, the biggest saving IMO are building your own speakers, by building your own cabinets you save can thousands. Analogue and simple digital layout is well within the means of a DIYer, and again good results can be achieved. PCBs and general electonics are reasonably priced, its when you come to enclosures and machining enclosures for connectors and switches that costs and difficulty come in, and then there is the ever increasing digital invasion into audio reproduction. Here I believe at the moment the DIYer is at a serious disadvantage, unless you are very well off or have the advantage of a tolerant workplace with the right equipement, DIYers are going to struggle as both complexity of devices (packaging BGA, QFN are designed for automated assembly, and pin count; 1000+pins on a BGA are not uncommen) and complexity of PCB construction (multilayer to handle the signal integrity of fast rise times), and testing the resulting circuitry, never mind firmware and software.
But at the end of the day its good fun, it keeps us occupied and debating! and keeps support for analogue reproduction (yang) going against the ever increasing digital influx (yin).
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