Which is the best Class D board? This question has been asked quite often in this or in other forums. An it has been answered even more often. So with a little effort, it is quite easy to find a bunch of reviews for the most Class D boards on the market.
But the most reviews rate the boards as a fullrange amplifier.
If being used in a multi way system for only a restricted frequency range, the quality valuation of a board may come up quite different. There is no need for a powerful bass, when driving only the tweeter of a system. How important is the resolution or whatever if the board is only used with a (sub)woofer?
So it seems quite obvious to me to select 'specialists' for the different ways of an active systems to get the optimal result. But will different Class D boards automatically blend with each other? Are there important aspects to be considered?
I'm looking for an optimal Class D configuration for the following system:
- Oris horn with BMS4952ND (modified)
- BD15 bass (BD-Design)
- crossover frequency ~270Hz
- Both drivers have a very high sensitivity so there is no need for lots of Watts.
As it is a 3 way system (BMS4592nd is a coax) and the Class D modules are intended to be placed on the back wall of the speakers, I would ideally need three mono boards or one mono and one stereo board on each side.
So, what are your suggestions, which combination of boards would you use in such a configuration?
I'm really looking forward to hear your recommendations
Cheers,
Matthias
But the most reviews rate the boards as a fullrange amplifier.
If being used in a multi way system for only a restricted frequency range, the quality valuation of a board may come up quite different. There is no need for a powerful bass, when driving only the tweeter of a system. How important is the resolution or whatever if the board is only used with a (sub)woofer?
So it seems quite obvious to me to select 'specialists' for the different ways of an active systems to get the optimal result. But will different Class D boards automatically blend with each other? Are there important aspects to be considered?
I'm looking for an optimal Class D configuration for the following system:
- Oris horn with BMS4952ND (modified)
- BD15 bass (BD-Design)
- crossover frequency ~270Hz
- Both drivers have a very high sensitivity so there is no need for lots of Watts.
As it is a 3 way system (BMS4592nd is a coax) and the Class D modules are intended to be placed on the back wall of the speakers, I would ideally need three mono boards or one mono and one stereo board on each side.
So, what are your suggestions, which combination of boards would you use in such a configuration?
I'm really looking forward to hear your recommendations
Cheers,
Matthias
Just use a good full range amp
Well, I have been considering the same question and have come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter, and if you are going to go fully active 3 way with class D you might as well just go for a single design of decent quality full range amp everywhere and be done with it. My reasoning is as follows:
a) A good amp is a good amp and will perform well across the full audio spectrum. Nobody (pure subwoofer duty aside) is going to specifically design a class D to be poor at one end or middle of the audio spectrum, so if there is such an amp it is pretty much by definition a bad design. Now if it is a bad design it probably has other faults as well as being poor at one side of the audio band so why bother with it?
b) Leaving aside the fact that nobody anywhere will have tested a range of amps specifically for the pass band you are going to use what will it mean when some kind sould gives a report of x vs y vs z amps and which parts of the audio band they are best at? I suspect it will largely mean that the a,ps responses aren't flat and have more gain in their 'stronger' area of performance, this of course is useless to us if we are driving them separately and give appropriate gain to each driver. Alternatively the more discerning audiophile might not just go by apparent loudness of the amps on highs and lows but might actually detect a qualitative difference, what then done this mean? I submit it is likely to mean the speakers used have some particularly nasty response characteristics at those points and the perceived sound difference is likely to be how well the amp can handle a nasty load. Now an amp that can handle a nasty load meets another quality of 'good amps' and gets an honourable mention for use all across the frequency band.
c) Possibly there is mileage in using lower powered amps for highs to mids to bass, but why? In general the claims seem to be the higher power class D amps tend to sound better so why use a lower powered one? Especially as that is likely to require different power supply voltages so complicating the design.
Note this is all in the context of using class D amps throughout. Now if we were using valve amps I would definitely want to optimise for each driver - at the minimum using optimised transformers for each. Staying more closely to home there is the question of whether it would be a good idea to use a class A amp for the treble where less power is required and it is more practical. That's a very different question so I'll just dodge it
Well, I have been considering the same question and have come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter, and if you are going to go fully active 3 way with class D you might as well just go for a single design of decent quality full range amp everywhere and be done with it. My reasoning is as follows:
a) A good amp is a good amp and will perform well across the full audio spectrum. Nobody (pure subwoofer duty aside) is going to specifically design a class D to be poor at one end or middle of the audio spectrum, so if there is such an amp it is pretty much by definition a bad design. Now if it is a bad design it probably has other faults as well as being poor at one side of the audio band so why bother with it?
b) Leaving aside the fact that nobody anywhere will have tested a range of amps specifically for the pass band you are going to use what will it mean when some kind sould gives a report of x vs y vs z amps and which parts of the audio band they are best at? I suspect it will largely mean that the a,ps responses aren't flat and have more gain in their 'stronger' area of performance, this of course is useless to us if we are driving them separately and give appropriate gain to each driver. Alternatively the more discerning audiophile might not just go by apparent loudness of the amps on highs and lows but might actually detect a qualitative difference, what then done this mean? I submit it is likely to mean the speakers used have some particularly nasty response characteristics at those points and the perceived sound difference is likely to be how well the amp can handle a nasty load. Now an amp that can handle a nasty load meets another quality of 'good amps' and gets an honourable mention for use all across the frequency band.
c) Possibly there is mileage in using lower powered amps for highs to mids to bass, but why? In general the claims seem to be the higher power class D amps tend to sound better so why use a lower powered one? Especially as that is likely to require different power supply voltages so complicating the design.
Note this is all in the context of using class D amps throughout. Now if we were using valve amps I would definitely want to optimise for each driver - at the minimum using optimised transformers for each. Staying more closely to home there is the question of whether it would be a good idea to use a class A amp for the treble where less power is required and it is more practical. That's a very different question so I'll just dodge it
We think we have a very suitable combination for three-way systems based on Sonora Combos and S250 modules with no additional power supply (the Combo can supply external modules). If you want more information, contact us at info@coldamp.com
For the bass, there is a clear advantage in having a specialized class d amp. You don't need high switching frequency. This simplifies the the amp and raises the efficiency even further.
I have some NXP 8950TH based amps, and they sound really good, especially for bass
You can get some very interesting amps based om NXP and T.I. chips here
Amplifier store Small Orders Online Store
I have some NXP 8950TH based amps, and they sound really good, especially for bass
You can get some very interesting amps based om NXP and T.I. chips here
Amplifier store Small Orders Online Store
Yes, and if you are looking to supply very large amounts of power for professional this is clearly important or at least an item worthy of consideration. But if if we are talking of domestic contexts (which is my focus and also how I took the OP) is extra efficiency in the bass amplifier above normal class D really important, or even important at all?
Now, are you saying that one of specialised bass/sub driver amps will actually sound better than a good full range design? If so I'm prepared to listen ...
Edit: I should also say that I am thinking of driving active speakers within their 'normal' range where they provide an essentially flat response. Where a system is engineered so bass frequency response depends heavily on equalisation and bass power requirement is abnormally high (compared to music power distribution) then yes, even in a domestic context, supplying very large amounts of power to the bass becomes an issue and I can see the benefit of different amp design.
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@matsj:
Got me.
The first response and yet a product I never heard about ...
Do you have some more information? Your experiences, price, where to get?
@goosewing:
I agree partly to your arguments, especially the increased complexity of the PSU when using different boards. Otherwise - a Tripath 2020 e.g. has absolutely enough power for the bms4592nd for normal volumes in my living room, but I would not use it for the bass. Sure I could use more powerful boards for mids and highs too, but basically more power means more expensive with no additional benefit.
Btw that's the combination I'm using right now, a Tripath TA2020 by Arjen Helder together with an Hifiakademie PowerAmp. But I don't wont to keep this combination, especially because the PowerAmp is a stereo board which therefore would have to stay between the speakers.
@ssanmor: Considering the 'integrated overall concept' aspect, your solution looks very interesting. I think I will take a look at it.
Anyone who shares his experiences with these modules here?
Cheers
Matthias
Got me.
The first response and yet a product I never heard about ...
Do you have some more information? Your experiences, price, where to get?
@goosewing:
I agree partly to your arguments, especially the increased complexity of the PSU when using different boards. Otherwise - a Tripath 2020 e.g. has absolutely enough power for the bms4592nd for normal volumes in my living room, but I would not use it for the bass. Sure I could use more powerful boards for mids and highs too, but basically more power means more expensive with no additional benefit.
Btw that's the combination I'm using right now, a Tripath TA2020 by Arjen Helder together with an Hifiakademie PowerAmp. But I don't wont to keep this combination, especially because the PowerAmp is a stereo board which therefore would have to stay between the speakers.
@ssanmor: Considering the 'integrated overall concept' aspect, your solution looks very interesting. I think I will take a look at it.
Anyone who shares his experiences with these modules here?
Cheers
Matthias
Which is the best Class D board? This question has been asked quite often in this or in other forums. An it has been answered even more often. So with a little effort, it is quite easy to find a bunch of reviews for the most Class D boards on the market.
But the most reviews rate the boards as a fullrange amplifier.
If being used in a multi way system for only a restricted frequency range, the quality valuation of a board may come up quite different. There is no need for a powerful bass, when driving only the tweeter of a system. How important is the resolution or whatever if the board is only used with a (sub)woofer?
So it seems quite obvious to me to select 'specialists' for the different ways of an active systems to get the optimal result. But will different Class D boards automatically blend with each other? Are there important aspects to be considered?
I'm looking for an optimal Class D configuration for the following system:
- Oris horn with BMS4952ND (modified)
- BD15 bass (BD-Design)
- crossover frequency ~270Hz
- Both drivers have a very high sensitivity so there is no need for lots of Watts.
As it is a 3 way system (BMS4592nd is a coax) and the Class D modules are intended to be placed on the back wall of the speakers, I would ideally need three mono boards or one mono and one stereo board on each side.
So, what are your suggestions, which combination of boards would you use in such a configuration?
I'm really looking forward to hear your recommendations
Cheers,
Matthias
Hi, I'm glad that someone speaks of "resolution" in the class D amp . apparently, we call this phenomenon "resolution" (the instruments in the range of high frequencies are not clearly defined, this sum is an odd intermodulation, typically after 60% modulation. I have studied this "phenomenon" that is independent of the carrier frequency high. unfortunately you can not measure this error and it is present in 90% of the amplifiers I've heard. (companies who need to choose the amplifier for the driver, know well this problem in fact, many are still going on with the class AB drivers)... No, it's just that I wanted to understand what it depends on this low "resolution". Therefore, it is possible that an amplifier with excellent audio measurements, the high frequency sound is crap . obviously depends on whether the listener is able to understand. or all amplifier is very good, very nice sound.
Regards
Thats exactly what I'm reflecting on. Getting the right/best products for the context they are going to be used.
For sure. Long ago I ran a system on just 90db speakers and a 10W amp supplying bass and treble. Sure it had its limitations, but it was more than loud enough for normal domestic settings and in terms of apparent dynamics put 2/300 watt amps of its time to shame. Power requirements (equalisation aside) are often exagerated.
Why not? Have you tried it? What does it sound like in this context?
Yes, OK. But with, say, the hifimediy T4/3/2 providing (domestically) ridiculously high power levels for beer money is the extra expense all that significant?
I would agree with you here completely, except comments here on the board and elsewhere suggest the higher power tk2050 style amps do sound better than the TA2020 designs. If this is true there is a benefit. Whether there is a benefit as just a tweeter driver I don't know.
Ah yes, if you want to split the power amps that is a problem. I think, given the lack of 3 channel boards, I may well end up with two pairs of stereo boards and 'wasting' one channel each side. Perhaps an sub might come one day to use them but for now I have 'simple' three way full rangers to drive.
As you seem to already have an active setup with TA2020 and some bigger amp for the bass can I ask you how the sound compares if you just run a single mono channel and power it with:
1) TA2020 driving top and bottom.
2) Big amp top and bottom
3) TA2020 top and bigger amp bottom (what you have now I assume).
4) Big amp top and TA2020 bottom?
Perhabs a hint? We can change the forum if you want or send me a PN.
Not at all, I haven't yet had the opportunity to compare the two so giving hints would be arrogant in the extreme. I have personally never been taken with big class A solid state amps but for just powering a tweeter using a class A or high biased AB chipamp seems a very real alternative. I can't give you a listening comparison though, until I actually go ahead and get this active setup built my stuff has evolved to simple two channel glass and it is all I have for proper listening.
edit: Actually not true. Of all things my speakers doing computer duty, although cursed with the usual super crappy active sub, have some very nice little nxt panels that give a naturalness to midrange and treble that is pretty unbelievable.
I did not try it out yet and this will take me at least one rainy sunday
Anyway - it's a good idea. Unfortunately my system, especially the wiring is not optimized for A/B-Testing (e.g. different connectors). But I own two other tripath boards, which I ordered for fun with my TA2020: The MKII version of Arjen Helder's TA2024 for £7,99 per piece
So it would be quite easy to try out a complete tripath configuration, as I can share the existing SMPS.What about a pair of the Connexelectronic TDA8920SMPS modules, with one bridged for the woofer?
Connexelectronic
They are only 100mm x 50mm and have an SMPS power supply built in. I have a pair of them but so far have only tried them out on the bench with an unboxed driver. My concern was that they might have an issue with noise due to the on board SMPS, but this doesn't seem to be a problem at all.
Connexelectronic
They are only 100mm x 50mm and have an SMPS power supply built in. I have a pair of them but so far have only tried them out on the bench with an unboxed driver. My concern was that they might have an issue with noise due to the on board SMPS, but this doesn't seem to be a problem at all.
I'm only thinking cost here. Cheaper to run because of better efficiency and cheaper to buy, because it's easier to construct/build. But, where are the low freq designs? I haven't seen one since the old ICEpower 1000A modules, so it's possible that getting hold of a low freq class d amp simply is impossible.
I have several class d designs at home. I have T.I. base 4x10 watt 4 ohm from MiniDSP, TA2024 from Arjen Helder (2x8 watt). I have NXP8950 (80 watt) from connex. I have had Panasonic SA-XR50 (100 watt 6 ohm) and CAD audio S400 (400 watt 4 ohm).
The only one that sounded bad was the Panasonic, but only on analogue input. The spdif input was really good. NXP 8950 the best bass amplifier I have tried. The CAD audio I was quite happy with at the time, lots of power but today, i know it sounded kind of weird in a way that is not natural. The bass was very dry, but compared to NXP8950 a bit thin sounding.
The full digital MiniDSP has some of the sound I have heard from the early Tact Millenium - the similarities is that it really present a very detailed sound. You here virtually everything. I use it for 2 way active set-up, but 10 watt just isn't enough for my 86 dB speaker. Not even for midrange.
One thing that is common for all class d amps I have heard and owned is that if they playing close to maximum output the sound gets really bad (hard and lacks dynamics). Especially the Panasonic would rather fast reach it's limits.
I just started the following test case
5) TA2020 bottom and TA2024 top
Arjen Helder's TA2020 board has a connection fo an overload LED, which showed me, that this board is not sufficient for my woofer.
The LED starts to glow quite early in the rhythm of the drums. I guess the reason is, that I have configured to much digital correction
Though this will not be the final configuration, I learned, that i should look for an amplifer with fairly more power.
The same board used with the coax definitely causes an overload in my ears before starting to flash
Nobody (pure subwoofer duty aside) is going to specifically design a class D to be poor at one end or middle of the audio spectrum, so if there is such an amp it is pretty much by definition a bad design.
I get fed up of people telling me class d is only good for bass.
I use an IRS2092 design and it sounds great full range.
Just because class d is cheaper to make they think it is worse.
Couldnt be further from the truth.
This might be a simplistic view, but everything i keep reading here and testing by others bears out is that a typical Class-D amp has a sort of exponential increase in distortion figures as you approach the max power ratings.
To me this means i would rather buy the higher power modules even for low power use. Better to run a 150W module at 50W than push a 60W module to 50W. The 150W module should always have better figures, plus some headroom.
For me I settled on T3 modules for the time being and they will eventually be used to drive all drivers in my system individually.
Yes i know consideration should be given to driver power handling specs but if you are going to the trouble of running a full active setup then tuning the input levels to the amps to ensure power matching of amp module to speaker driver should be a bit of a no brainer.
Phil
To me this means i would rather buy the higher power modules even for low power use. Better to run a 150W module at 50W than push a 60W module to 50W. The 150W module should always have better figures, plus some headroom.
For me I settled on T3 modules for the time being and they will eventually be used to drive all drivers in my system individually.
Yes i know consideration should be given to driver power handling specs but if you are going to the trouble of running a full active setup then tuning the input levels to the amps to ensure power matching of amp module to speaker driver should be a bit of a no brainer.
Phil
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