Julf, please believe me. I AM flabbergasted
I definitely do believe you - it is just that the first thing is always to ensure that that there aren't any "alternative explanations".
I'd add that with all A/B amps I've tried, even the very cheap ones, the difference was in the highs. there's a definite problem with the UCDs highs, something relatively easy to identify even for an audiophile-illiterate person. it's like the treble control was messed with, although there's nothing suggesting that in the measurements. it's been reported many times. with very "hot" masterings its easy to mistake that for neutrality but with good recordings... well, you get to see the bigger picture.
with my current amp, the difference is beyond tonality matters. it's everywhere, that I feel it's ridiculous to even try to describe it. what surprises me is that EVERYTHING that I've always felt to be lacking in the sound got better with the new amp. note that I believe this A/B to be beyond what its price suggests ($950 new).
and I repeat. I'm even MORE curious if the NCORE solved those issues but (and this is pure speculation), I feel it's unlikely. I'm just a man and like everyone else I'm partially led by intuition and laws of probabilities. however, I'd be more than glad to be proven wrong.
to me it seems that this class D thing is somehow heading in the wrong direction. looks like all manufacturers are jumping ship because it's the new proper thing to wear. IMO class D MUST keep it small, light and relatively cheap. otherwise, there's no point, because I believe we already have amps that are close to perfection. but they cost an arm and a leg. but 20k class-D amps, with cases and sizes suggesting high-bias class A amps? will someone explain that to me? AND they still get bad reviews. look at the new Mark Levinson, the TAD one etc. WTF?
but, again, UCD is UCD, NCORE is NCORE. I really wish this last sentence to be true
PS: oh, the irony. I am back to push pull LOL
with my current amp, the difference is beyond tonality matters. it's everywhere, that I feel it's ridiculous to even try to describe it. what surprises me is that EVERYTHING that I've always felt to be lacking in the sound got better with the new amp. note that I believe this A/B to be beyond what its price suggests ($950 new).
and I repeat. I'm even MORE curious if the NCORE solved those issues but (and this is pure speculation), I feel it's unlikely. I'm just a man and like everyone else I'm partially led by intuition and laws of probabilities. however, I'd be more than glad to be proven wrong.
to me it seems that this class D thing is somehow heading in the wrong direction. looks like all manufacturers are jumping ship because it's the new proper thing to wear. IMO class D MUST keep it small, light and relatively cheap. otherwise, there's no point, because I believe we already have amps that are close to perfection. but they cost an arm and a leg. but 20k class-D amps, with cases and sizes suggesting high-bias class A amps? will someone explain that to me? AND they still get bad reviews. look at the new Mark Levinson, the TAD one etc. WTF?
but, again, UCD is UCD, NCORE is NCORE. I really wish this last sentence to be true
PS: oh, the irony. I am back to push pull LOL
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All this says is that in your system, you prefer something else. There are plenty of people who feel otherwise both about the UcD and the ncore. There are countless examples posted already of people who preferred the ncore to a well known commercial class a or a/b amp. At these performance levels, saying one is better than the other comes down to personal preference in most cases.
I won't argue.
but I'm more inclined to think it's not a preference thing. I do know that a lot of people reported that they switched from big name amps to Hypex based ones. OTOH I know that a small and not always vocal proportion of the public agrees with me.
that's why I said that I am flabbergasted
Why do you find it unlikely? Bruno has clearly stated that the nCore improvements are especially in the high frequencies. I have no experience with the UCDs, but I can tell you that to me the nCores sound at least as good as any class A/B amp I have heard so far.
it's the fanboys. damn it, as hard as it is to write it, I was one of them. don't think I find pleasure* in writing this
also, note that the UCD180 datasheets (I still have the early ones) claim it to be of audiophile quality, which I now believe to be untrue. obviously, it should be noted that Bruno is part of a profit-oriented company, which functions in a capitalist environment. I don't think he's able to change the rules of the free market, instead is forced to use them to his and his company's benefit. which is what everyone else does
* unless, in the course of self discovery I'll find I'm masochistic as well LOL
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I remember I told an acoustician (a true expert in small room by the way) once that my speakers sounded harsh, fatiguing and like "bare wire" in the mids and highs with a Crown XTi amplifier.
He said: "Then your room and speakers suck."
Later I've found out he really had a point. A truly good and balanced system shouldn't be thrown off completely by some distortion from an amp. Even an amp that's not particurlary great.
Then there's already some major flaws in the setup.
Some amps, with their lack of opennes and distortion, can hide and minimize these flaws to differents degrees. It's no surprise some people prefer these amps.
I have both UcD (HG with HxR) and Ncore. I find the Ncore a bit more relaxe and smooth sounding. But the difference isn't nigh and day. If one dislikes UcD in their system, I doubt they will think Ncore is great. It's a very revealing amp. Your system better be good. If not, a vintage or a tube amp may be a better pick.
He said: "Then your room and speakers suck."
Later I've found out he really had a point. A truly good and balanced system shouldn't be thrown off completely by some distortion from an amp. Even an amp that's not particurlary great.
Then there's already some major flaws in the setup.
Some amps, with their lack of opennes and distortion, can hide and minimize these flaws to differents degrees. It's no surprise some people prefer these amps.
I have both UcD (HG with HxR) and Ncore. I find the Ncore a bit more relaxe and smooth sounding. But the difference isn't nigh and day. If one dislikes UcD in their system, I doubt they will think Ncore is great. It's a very revealing amp. Your system better be good. If not, a vintage or a tube amp may be a better pick.
I'd add that with all A/B amps I've tried, even the very cheap ones, the difference was in the highs. there's a definite problem with the UCDs highs, something relatively easy to identify even for an audiophile-illiterate person. it's like the treble control was messed with, although there's nothing suggesting that in the measurements. it's been reported many times. with very "hot" masterings its easy to mistake that for neutrality but with good recordings... well, you get to see the bigger picture.
with my current amp, the difference is beyond tonality matters. it's everywhere, that I feel it's ridiculous to even try to describe it. what surprises me is that EVERYTHING that I've always felt to be lacking in the sound got better with the new amp. note that I believe this A/B to be beyond what its price suggests ($950 new).
and I repeat. I'm even MORE curious if the NCORE solved those issues but (and this is pure speculation), I feel it's unlikely. I'm just a man and like everyone else I'm partially led by intuition and laws of probabilities. however, I'd be more than glad to be proven wrong.
to me it seems that this class D thing is somehow heading in the wrong direction. looks like all manufacturers are jumping ship because it's the new proper thing to wear. IMO class D MUST keep it small, light and relatively cheap. otherwise, there's no point, because I believe we already have amps that are close to perfection. but they cost an arm and a leg. but 20k class-D amps, with cases and sizes suggesting high-bias class A amps? will someone explain that to me? AND they still get bad reviews. look at the new Mark Levinson, the TAD one etc. WTF?
but, again, UCD is UCD, NCORE is NCORE. I really wish this last sentence to be true
PS: oh, the irony. I am back to push pull LOL
Mr. Push pull -thanks for sharing your experiences.
Great to read that you've found something that fits you.
Because ncore is said to offer more of what UCD offers, my humble guess is that if UCD didn't float your boat, in your system, then ncore probably wont either...
That said, would you be so kind to tell us what's the new wonder amp is called and what UCDs you used and how you implemented them -PS/input wise?
My own experience with some UCD modules was that they first of all were super sensitive to PS implementation. When I seemed to get a good foothold on that part they showed to become rather sensitive to their source. My modules are unbuffered so impedance was of course an issue regarding source-matching.
Best,
Omholt, actually the new amp is the more revealing one. recordings sound more different from each other compared to before.
and, since you quoted a friend of yours, I'll quote one of mine. guy said "worst thing is gear that makes everything sound the same way". I feel like he was describing my UCD.
and the UCD was not harsh in any way. actually, the other way round. it sounded like "sir, can I interest you in this polite and boring sound?"
and, since you quoted a friend of yours, I'll quote one of mine. guy said "worst thing is gear that makes everything sound the same way". I feel like he was describing my UCD.
and the UCD was not harsh in any way. actually, the other way round. it sounded like "sir, can I interest you in this polite and boring sound?"
I think I resent that. I can be pretty critical if I have reason to. If you read what I wrote, I think it was pretty balanced and factual, apart from the part expressing my personal experience. And even there I did not say the nCore is the best thing since sliced bread. I said I find the nCore at least as good as any class A/B amp I have heard. But then again, I don't think there are night and day differences in any decent, modern amps (except for "audiphile" monsters and some tube amps that are designed to be "euphoric" instead of transparent).
I won't argue.
but I'm more inclined to think it's not a preference thing. I do know that a lot of people reported that they switched from big name amps to Hypex based ones. OTOH I know that a small and not always vocal proportion of the public agrees with me.
that's why I said that I am flabbergasted
I would be flabbergasted if everyone had the same opinion. Audio clearly has a very large subjective component. It is to be expected that people have different preferences. Hardly a surprise that some people dislike Hypex. Seems that even more people like it, though....
I'm glad you found an amp you enjoy in your system.Omholt, actually the new amp is the more revealing one. recordings sound more different from each other compared to before.
and, since you quoted a friend of yours, I'll quote one of mine. guy said "worst thing is gear that makes everything sound the same way". I feel like he was describing my UCD.
and the UCD was not harsh in any way. actually, the other way round. it sounded like "sir, can I interest you in this polite and boring sound?"
Would be interesting to hear which it is. Perhaps there's a good tehnical explanation for your experience.
Your experience with everything "sounding the same" is far from mine. That's however what I experience with some amps that has a clear euphoric footprint of distiortion. It's like eating food with louds of oregano on it all the time. But that's not what UcD amps do.
Audio Refinement Complete. but does it matter? 20000uF of reservoir caps per rail (just like with my UCD), smallish R-core transformer, low NFB, nothing fancy. look at the insides. it'll make you laugh.
first I used separate linear supplies per side. 200VA transformers, fast, soft-recovery bridges and 20000uF per rail. compared it to an audiophile class A amp (forgot the brand, 5k-6k price range) on Dynaudio Audience speakers. definite difference in the bass but very close otherwise. than switched to an audio SMPS (bought used, unidentified brand). measured very small supply sag with a full-scale 50Hz sine and a 4-ohm resistive load. definitely smaller than with the linear supply but can't recall exact figures, it was a while ago. still, inferior bass.
I'll let you guess what's one of the most noticeable differences with the Audio Refinement
but yes. I do believe that power supply has a lot to do with it, contrary to what some try to suggest. also, I feel a bit upset by the fact that Hypex only lists PSRR at one frequency only (sorry if I'm mistaken, I'll check the datasheet and rectify if necessary).
again I agree that what made me refrain from going the NCORE route was the fact that I've always felt that it's "more UCD". I believe I wrote that exact same expression before.
I am just glad that you finally found the amp you are completely satisfied with.
However, when talking about the highs, i wonder if UCD amp would sound more to your liking if it had a low pass filter with -3dB cut off at around 22khz. According to stereophile measurements the Audio Refinement The Complete amp has that kind of input/output filter.
Audio Refinement The Complete integrated amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com
However, when talking about the highs, i wonder if UCD amp would sound more to your liking if it had a low pass filter with -3dB cut off at around 22khz. According to stereophile measurements the Audio Refinement The Complete amp has that kind of input/output filter.
Audio Refinement The Complete integrated amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com
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Mr. Allan Shaw, owner and designer of well-respected Harbeth brand, agrees with you. I don't
when I said fanboys, I did not mean you, if that's what you're implying. AFAIK you did not own UCD amps and the NCORES may be very well suited to your system.
you're welcome to call me a liar, but here's the story. I looked at the measurements before the amp arrived. I'm 40% a meter reader
I had expected to hear just what the FR plot suggested: recessed highs. but then I received the package, connected the amp and turned it on. o-oh! that is a cognitive dissonance kind of o-oh. because the Audio Refinement sounds like it has more highs.
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I have no reason to call you a liar. However i think there is some "weird" things happening in the brain when perceiving sound as a whole. Especially when the really high frequencies are changed. Maybe same kind of low pass filter "trick" would work on any amp, such as like the UCD. Or maybe not, if there is more to it, but imo its worth a try anyways.
definitely, perception is complex. I read psychoacoustics from time to time, I find it fascinating.
what I find impossible to get my head around to is the fact that the UCD is supposed to sound better. I find it impossible to believe that experienced sound engineers, using the best gear available intentionally mix and master music so that all of it sounds bad.
Looking at measurements of Audio Refinement, it doesn't look that, eh refined.
Audio Refinement The Complete integrated amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com
Something isn't right here. I don't know what.
Audio Refinement The Complete integrated amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com
Something isn't right here. I don't know what.
euphonics? deliberately tuned?
no. that "no" is coming from my ears. because they tell me the AR amp fixed the anti-music the UCDs produced. sorry for the bluntness, but it's the frankest way I can put it.
Audio Refinement Complete. but does it matter? 20000uF of reservoir caps per rail (just like with my UCD), smallish R-core transformer, low NFB, nothing fancy. look at the insides. it'll make you laugh.
first I used separate linear supplies per side. 200VA transformers, fast, soft-recovery bridges and 20000uF per rail. compared it to an audiophile class A amp (forgot the brand, 5k-6k price range) on Dynaudio Audience speakers. definite difference in the bass but very close otherwise. than switched to an audio SMPS (bought used, unidentified brand). measured very small supply sag with a full-scale 50Hz sine and a 4-ohm resistive load. definitely smaller than with the linear supply but can't recall exact figures, it was a while ago. still, inferior bass.
I'll let you guess what's one of the most noticeable differences with the Audio Refinement
but yes. I do believe that power supply has a lot to do with it, contrary to what some try to suggest. also, I feel a bit upset by the fact that Hypex only lists PSRR at one frequency only (sorry if I'm mistaken, I'll check the datasheet and rectify if necessary).
again I agree that what made me refrain from going the NCORE route was the fact that I've always felt that it's "more UCD". I believe I wrote that exact same expression before.
Thanks for sharing.
From what you write, I somehow come to believe that it could be the high levels of nfb and low resulting o/p impedance of the UCDs that produce the sound you dislike. Not in any way to hint that your ears are wrong, but from my own bodging I have also experienced the double-edged impact of high DF. It does provide control and detail -but small matching issues can easily cause a "plasitc-like" sound that doesn't "breath" properly. It's like everything sort of sticks annoyingly together and produce a flat up front presentation with too little body in the bass and too much glare on every thing.
An interesting experiment could be for you to deploy some small series resistors to the hot o/p terminals of your UCD amp. Try something like 0.22-0.1 R and "see" how that affects things. My guess is that it'll get quite a lot closer to the a/b amp
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