I am not an audiophile. Allow me to explain how I reached that conclusion:
I recently purchased and built a pair of NCores and SMPS 600s. My initial impressions were very favorable: great bass control, resolved midrange and high end, great instrument separation--most of the same things that other users had reported hearing. I spent many hours just playing music and enjoying the heck out of them. At some point, I invited my Dad over to hear them, and he liked them, but asked me "Have you A/B tested them against the Onkyo?" To which I had to answer "no." That got me to thinking about how I could accomplish that.
Being a software engineer and general techno-geek, I remembered in the past dealing with a relay board that could be controlled via serial port. While I no longer had that in my posession, I did find a USB version with 8 relays on Amazon for $30-something dollars. After receiving that and getting it working in my development environment, I wired it up for A/B testing and plugged everything in. I could remote-control the PC driving the board with my phone, while controlling the music on my iPad (using JRemote remote-controlling J.River Media Center). Output was to the ODAC, and directly to the inputs of the NCores and the Onkyo TX-SR602. Speakers are Paradigm Studio 60 v3s.
After level matching as best I could (volume level 81 or 82 on the Onkyo--probably right in between), I proceeded to spend several hours listening to many of the tracks that had so impressed me on the NCores, but this time switching back and forth to the Onkyo. And to my utter astonishment (and disappointment, I must add), I could not reliably discern any differences at all. The bass, midrange, high end, soundstage...I could detect no differences. I even recruited some "young ears"--my 15-year-old daughter, and she couldn't hear any differences either. In fact, the only difference I could hear was if no music was playing at all, where the NCores were significantly quieter, even though they are not even in an enclosure yet (and no balanced wiring either).
Hence my conclusion that I am not an audiophile. When I cannot tell the difference between a piece of consumer gear and and amp with 0.0005% THD under normal conditions, why bother with the expensive stuff?
Anyone interested in a pair of NCores?
I recently purchased and built a pair of NCores and SMPS 600s. My initial impressions were very favorable: great bass control, resolved midrange and high end, great instrument separation--most of the same things that other users had reported hearing. I spent many hours just playing music and enjoying the heck out of them. At some point, I invited my Dad over to hear them, and he liked them, but asked me "Have you A/B tested them against the Onkyo?" To which I had to answer "no." That got me to thinking about how I could accomplish that.
Being a software engineer and general techno-geek, I remembered in the past dealing with a relay board that could be controlled via serial port. While I no longer had that in my posession, I did find a USB version with 8 relays on Amazon for $30-something dollars. After receiving that and getting it working in my development environment, I wired it up for A/B testing and plugged everything in. I could remote-control the PC driving the board with my phone, while controlling the music on my iPad (using JRemote remote-controlling J.River Media Center). Output was to the ODAC, and directly to the inputs of the NCores and the Onkyo TX-SR602. Speakers are Paradigm Studio 60 v3s.
After level matching as best I could (volume level 81 or 82 on the Onkyo--probably right in between), I proceeded to spend several hours listening to many of the tracks that had so impressed me on the NCores, but this time switching back and forth to the Onkyo. And to my utter astonishment (and disappointment, I must add), I could not reliably discern any differences at all. The bass, midrange, high end, soundstage...I could detect no differences. I even recruited some "young ears"--my 15-year-old daughter, and she couldn't hear any differences either. In fact, the only difference I could hear was if no music was playing at all, where the NCores were significantly quieter, even though they are not even in an enclosure yet (and no balanced wiring either).
Hence my conclusion that I am not an audiophile. When I cannot tell the difference between a piece of consumer gear and and amp with 0.0005% THD under normal conditions, why bother with the expensive stuff?
Anyone interested in a pair of NCores?
It's great that you did the comparison as fastidiously (sp?) as you did. So the only question is, does Onkyo give you the same degree of long term enjoyment as the NCores? If so, then consider selling your NCores or consider using a balanced source for the NCores and then reassess...
Best,
Anand.
Best,
Anand.
u-oh! I think the non-audiophile-grade relays are masking the differences. are the contacts golden?
AND... what cables?
now, seriously, you mean instant A/B switching? your impressions may very well be correct, the difference I sensed between my UCDs and other amps I've tried (still "consumer" grade) weren't exactly obvious and I doubt I'd be able to reliably identify them in a ABX test. I guess front end, speakers and room have an influence on the result too. or maybe the difference really isn't that great. who knows?
AND... what cables?
now, seriously, you mean instant A/B switching? your impressions may very well be correct, the difference I sensed between my UCDs and other amps I've tried (still "consumer" grade) weren't exactly obvious and I doubt I'd be able to reliably identify them in a ABX test. I guess front end, speakers and room have an influence on the result too. or maybe the difference really isn't that great. who knows?
I wrote the software with two switching modes: instant or with a null connection in between. The idea for the null connection was that when doing ABX testing, you don't want the lack of a click to give away that there was no change in amps. Switching from amp A to null and back to amp A should sound the same as switching from A to null to B. And I could not tell the difference just from the clicks with no music playing. There is about a 50 ms gap in the playback in the null mode.
In practice, I used the "instant" mode and didn't bother with ABX, since I was certain I would get a null result anyway with ABX (that and I didn't incorporate "trials" for true ABX). In this mode, there is only sometimes a click in the music (plus the click of the relays), but it's basically an instant switch. Sometimes I had to mute the volume on the Onkyo just to make sure it was working (it always was).
Perhaps I can build this thing into an enclosure with proper binding posts, some finished ABX software and loan it out to the audio community. It just might open some eyes ;-)
Differences between good amps are small, but I think the ability to hear it depends greatly on the speakers and acoustic environment. Preamp and source also contribute some.
I don't have hard time hearing the difference between UcD HG with HxR and Ncore in an AB test.
I can't hear the difference between normal cables though.....
I don't have hard time hearing the difference between UcD HG with HxR and Ncore in an AB test.
I can't hear the difference between normal cables though.....
By the way, I'm only half-joking about selling them. My longer-term plan involves some Salks (probably either the SongTowers to the HT2-TL) along with new centers, surrounds, sub, etc. The NCores will probably end up driving the mains, and I will likely get a pre/pro and a 3-channel amp to drive the rest. It's still nice to know you have 400 watts into 4 ohms on tap, as well as some of the best distortion numbers in the industry.
While training and knowing exactly what to listen for might help to hear minute differences, I wasn't really expecting to hear any differences between the nc400's and my decent class A/B amp under "normal" conditions, and I haven't.
I got the nc400s to make sure my amps could drive some hard-to-drive and current-hungry speakers at high loads, and still sound at least as good as a traditional amp - while not making the lights flicker and the temperatures go up by 5 degrees in the house. I have to say the nc400s have fulfilled that role very well.
I would agree with that (of course there was no preamp in this setup, except in the Onkyo). However, I remember telling someone that the differences between the NCore and the Onkyo "weren't subtle." Unfortunately, I will have to eat those words. I sure expected to hear some differences! When both amps are experiencing the same load, same chain of gear, same room, same listening position--to not hear any differences...well, that means they either sound the same, or at least sound the same to me.
One caveat is that I *may* have lost some of the advantages of the extremely low output impedance of the NCore in this setup, but it does make me wonder how low is really necessary?
I tested the nc400+smps600 in my home system a while ago. I have now sold my Burmester 956 mk2 amplifier...
I am now building 3 monoblocks with bridged nc400 powered by smps1200. Chassis is the Galaxy Maggiorato from Hifi2000.
I will come back with pictures and listening impressions later.
I am now building 3 monoblocks with bridged nc400 powered by smps1200. Chassis is the Galaxy Maggiorato from Hifi2000.
I will come back with pictures and listening impressions later.
One nice feature of the NC400 is the discrete input buffer, which has a 100kΩ input impedance and should be compatible with virtually every piece of gear that has a line-level out (i.e. 2V redbook).
Ncore grounding in Hifi2000 slimline
Hi all,
after the more philosophical discussions in the recent posts I have some hands-on questions
I am in the process of building a multichannel amp based on Ncores and SMPS600. I have some questions regarding the best practise for grounding/low noise.
I am building the amp in a Hifi2000 Slimline 2U case. I will only mount XLR connectors as input connectors of the amp. I mounted female Neutrik NC3FD-LX in the back plate of the case. I chose to go for safety class 2 (no mains earth connected to the chassis). I connected the metal leg of each SMPS600 to the bottom plate of the case by scratching away the anodizing of the bottom plate in the screw area.
I carefully read the Ncore manual. Still some questions remain:
1. Does it make sense to connect with a wire the back plate and the bottom plate of the Slimline case? The back plate is mounted with anodized screws in anodized threads to the side walls which are connected by anodized screws to the anodized bottom plate. I do not know how good the connection between the back plate (ground of XLR connector) and the bottom plate (ground of SMPS) needs to be.
2. The Neutrik XLR connectors in the back plate have the 3 usual pins and an additional pin directly at the connector housing. What is best for connecting the shielding of the Ncore input cable?
a. Connect the Ncore input cable shield to pin 1, solder a wire from pin1 to the housing pin and connect the mounting screw of the connector housing to the back plate (scratching the anodizing at the screw)? Or
b. Connect the Ncore input cable shielding to the mounting screw of the connector (again scratching away the anodizing) and solder a wire from the connector housing pin of the connector to pin1? Or
c. ??
3. I also might use a crossover upstream of the Ncores with only RCA outputs. For these connections I will make the RCA to XLR adapter cables as recommended in the Ncore manual (RCA shield connected to pin 3 and pin 1 of the XLR end). Does it make sense to solder a 47K resistor in the RCA connector of the cable between pin and shield (for a DC path) as recommended in the manual for RCA input connectors at the amp?
4. Anything else to consider?
Alterfalter
Hi all,
after the more philosophical discussions in the recent posts I have some hands-on questions
I am in the process of building a multichannel amp based on Ncores and SMPS600. I have some questions regarding the best practise for grounding/low noise.
I am building the amp in a Hifi2000 Slimline 2U case. I will only mount XLR connectors as input connectors of the amp. I mounted female Neutrik NC3FD-LX in the back plate of the case. I chose to go for safety class 2 (no mains earth connected to the chassis). I connected the metal leg of each SMPS600 to the bottom plate of the case by scratching away the anodizing of the bottom plate in the screw area.
I carefully read the Ncore manual. Still some questions remain:
1. Does it make sense to connect with a wire the back plate and the bottom plate of the Slimline case? The back plate is mounted with anodized screws in anodized threads to the side walls which are connected by anodized screws to the anodized bottom plate. I do not know how good the connection between the back plate (ground of XLR connector) and the bottom plate (ground of SMPS) needs to be.
2. The Neutrik XLR connectors in the back plate have the 3 usual pins and an additional pin directly at the connector housing. What is best for connecting the shielding of the Ncore input cable?
a. Connect the Ncore input cable shield to pin 1, solder a wire from pin1 to the housing pin and connect the mounting screw of the connector housing to the back plate (scratching the anodizing at the screw)? Or
b. Connect the Ncore input cable shielding to the mounting screw of the connector (again scratching away the anodizing) and solder a wire from the connector housing pin of the connector to pin1? Or
c. ??
3. I also might use a crossover upstream of the Ncores with only RCA outputs. For these connections I will make the RCA to XLR adapter cables as recommended in the Ncore manual (RCA shield connected to pin 3 and pin 1 of the XLR end). Does it make sense to solder a 47K resistor in the RCA connector of the cable between pin and shield (for a DC path) as recommended in the manual for RCA input connectors at the amp?
4. Anything else to consider?
Alterfalter
Really? There is one PDF covering the nC400, and in it's first bug fix it clearly spells out the resistor is R141.
See this post by Bruno
"Rg=1.2k, Rf=2.2k. Rg, as noted in the bugs section of the data sheet is not marked (will be in the future), but it's called R141 and it's the one furthest to the left of the input connector. "
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