Hi,
Maybe I can clarify why I jumped on this thread.
First of all I would like to thank qusp, for clearing up my post and someone for having decoded well, the sense of my posts.
I know well that too many sides of the sound, are still obscure and open to new studies. for that very reason, we must use well the known science. (I have called basic science).
If we translate as subjective even the basics, then we lose. (I understand that for some, it may be convenient).right in this I do not agree.
Accurate measurements, and a correct interpretation can help us to set more realistically as possible the amplification of sound.
Obvious that remains psychoacoustics and other, given that the sound should be reproduced by a speaker, then through the air reaches our ears, and our brain does the rest. (only in the latter passage, we know only 30%.)
Retouched something goes out from the amplifier, and not on amplifier (if it is more correct possible).
well, now back in my harem.
Regards
Maybe I can clarify why I jumped on this thread.
First of all I would like to thank qusp, for clearing up my post and someone for having decoded well, the sense of my posts.
I know well that too many sides of the sound, are still obscure and open to new studies. for that very reason, we must use well the known science. (I have called basic science).
If we translate as subjective even the basics, then we lose. (I understand that for some, it may be convenient).right in this I do not agree.
Accurate measurements, and a correct interpretation can help us to set more realistically as possible the amplification of sound.
Obvious that remains psychoacoustics and other, given that the sound should be reproduced by a speaker, then through the air reaches our ears, and our brain does the rest. (only in the latter passage, we know only 30%.)
Retouched something goes out from the amplifier, and not on amplifier (if it is more correct possible).
well, now back in my harem.
Regards
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Bruno warns against using regulated linear supplies when I aked him;
'The problem regulating the HV supplies is that half bridge class D amplifiers always draw a slight excess of power from one rail and dump this in the other or vice versa depending on the instantaneous polarity of the output signal (ie one way during one half cycle, the other way during the other half). Ordinary supplies don't mind. The storage caps will just store that bit of excess charge and deliver it back half a cycle later. Regulated supplies can't do this. They just go out of regulation and let the rail voltage run away. It's not only bass performance that is affected. You might actually find the amplifier turning off all the time as its overvoltage protection kicks in.'
He also said that a linear supply (unregulated of course) is very nearly as good as their SMPS.
I was asking because I already had all the parts for a high grade linear power supply (x2) so wanted to save money not buying the SMPS.
'The problem regulating the HV supplies is that half bridge class D amplifiers always draw a slight excess of power from one rail and dump this in the other or vice versa depending on the instantaneous polarity of the output signal (ie one way during one half cycle, the other way during the other half). Ordinary supplies don't mind. The storage caps will just store that bit of excess charge and deliver it back half a cycle later. Regulated supplies can't do this. They just go out of regulation and let the rail voltage run away. It's not only bass performance that is affected. You might actually find the amplifier turning off all the time as its overvoltage protection kicks in.'
He also said that a linear supply (unregulated of course) is very nearly as good as their SMPS.
I was asking because I already had all the parts for a high grade linear power supply (x2) so wanted to save money not buying the SMPS.
For this reason, there are measures ... just to see the real behavior, specially under the dynamic profile.
well i'll let AP2 answer, but the DPS600 has differential sense/feedback and there is a version specifically designed for Class D, so perhaps this has been taken into account, I gather the approach is quite novel
edit: haha as I thought, he was posting as I was by the looks of it. but it may only be able to back off, rather than actually consume current perhaps?
edit: haha as I thought, he was posting as I was by the looks of it. but it may only be able to back off, rather than actually consume current perhaps?
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If one feels that...
they need a regulated supply to improve the performance of the nCore amps, why not just power the SMPS600 from a good AC regenerator. The regenerator will then provide rock solid voltage at low output impedance to the SMPS600, and the output voltage of the SMPS600 will be held constant (as Bruno has stated that the output voltage of the SMPS600 is constant with the input volatge).
One might want to monitor AC line voltage levels while playing the system at high levels to see if the line voltage is being modulated by the load in the first place.
they need a regulated supply to improve the performance of the nCore amps, why not just power the SMPS600 from a good AC regenerator. The regenerator will then provide rock solid voltage at low output impedance to the SMPS600, and the output voltage of the SMPS600 will be held constant (as Bruno has stated that the output voltage of the SMPS600 is constant with the input volatge).
One might want to monitor AC line voltage levels while playing the system at high levels to see if the line voltage is being modulated by the load in the first place.
Please, we have to never, never forget, when we think about some impact of an audio part, to have a clear vision of the landscape, and degree of magnitude.
About regulated SMPS, it is just a servo feeding a servo. Depending of the time behavior of each, it can be better or worse than a non regulated one. Wiring matters as well.
One thing is obvious, if you use the power supply that was tested by the amp's designer and reported by several people as sounding OK, you are sure to not engage yourself in a bet.
That does not mean than an other power supply will not does better or equal.
About what i consider as an excess of 'objectivism' (AP2 position), we have to remember too that we know few from physics, properties of the things we build (components as well) and audio hifi is just a make believe game.
Pure naive audiophiles show an excess in the opposite middle aged direction.
About regulated SMPS, it is just a servo feeding a servo. Depending of the time behavior of each, it can be better or worse than a non regulated one. Wiring matters as well.
One thing is obvious, if you use the power supply that was tested by the amp's designer and reported by several people as sounding OK, you are sure to not engage yourself in a bet.
That does not mean than an other power supply will not does better or equal.
About what i consider as an excess of 'objectivism' (AP2 position), we have to remember too that we know few from physics, properties of the things we build (components as well) and audio hifi is just a make believe game.
Pure naive audiophiles show an excess in the opposite middle aged direction.
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I think you have a good point - just replacing a custom-designed SMPS with a generic linear power supply, without understanding the design constraints and demands of a switching amplifier won't lead to good results. If you want to go for an alternative power supply solution, you'd better understand what problem you are trying to solve.
I know I am starting to show an excess of middle age - I wish I could head in the opposite direction...
it really doesnt have much to do with mains fluctuation, though that is dealt with as well, so I dont know what a power regenerator is supposed to do, but at the same time i'm making no claims in relation to a regulated ps with this amp. it was asked what was a good high current egulated supply, I mentioned one that also happened to be made by another contributor to the thread, one that I happen to also own.
It is also one that has apparently been used by 'the shaman' with NCORE?, without the aforementioned issues in the bass or cutting off,. I say this because he needs his friend to buy another pair of amps so he can do a meaningful comparison to the SMPS600, presumably he wouldnt need to do such a careful comparison if the bass was severely distorted and the amp cutting out....
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well, 'we' often claim all sorts of weird and strange things because we believe it sounds better
I remember once I thought a resistor sounded better
until I noticed I had forgot to connect both ends
I always keep that in mind before making 'certain claims'
and at other times, what appears to sounds 'absolutely fantastic and stunning', suddenly sounds much much better when changed later on
hey, Im joking
I remember once I thought a resistor sounded better
until I noticed I had forgot to connect both ends
I always keep that in mind before making 'certain claims'
and at other times, what appears to sounds 'absolutely fantastic and stunning', suddenly sounds much much better when changed later on
hey, Im joking
It is also one that has apparently been used by 'the shaman' with NCORE, without the aforementioned issues in the bass or cutting off,. I say this because he needs his friend to buy another pair of amps so he can do a meaningful comparison to the SMPS600, presumably he wouldnt need to do such a careful comparison if the bass was severely distorted and the amp cutting out....
We actually haven't tried our DPS600/DAs on the NC400s yet.
I don't see why we'd have issues with peaks etc. My understanding is that Audiopower's SMPSs and amps show exemplary behavior when pushed to the limit.
Plus, I do know for a fact that AP's SMPSs have been used alongside UCD 700HG modules with no issues. If they could handle those, I think they'll handle NC400s as well.
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The "Insert-in it is better, remove-it it is better" effect ?
It applies to several disciplines out of audio too
hypex nc 400 problem
Hi ,
I recently purchased 2 nc 400 and 2 smps 600 one amp was first assembled and tested and working fine with sound coming out.
However after assembling the second exactly as the first amp and tested , there was no sound coming out from the speaker.
What I did notice was the fourth LED from the negative speaker terminal post was brightly lit on the not ok amp whilst the ok amp, the same led was very dimly lit.
The Led number is D33 I think (too small).
What is the significant of this led or is it other thing that is at fault.
Please help me to rectify this problem.
Thank you very much
Regards,
A.Rahman Hussin
Hi ,
I recently purchased 2 nc 400 and 2 smps 600 one amp was first assembled and tested and working fine with sound coming out.
However after assembling the second exactly as the first amp and tested , there was no sound coming out from the speaker.
What I did notice was the fourth LED from the negative speaker terminal post was brightly lit on the not ok amp whilst the ok amp, the same led was very dimly lit.
The Led number is D33 I think (too small).
What is the significant of this led or is it other thing that is at fault.
Please help me to rectify this problem.
Thank you very much
Regards,
A.Rahman Hussin
Not what i would call a great idea. Have you ever built an AC regenerator? At a power output sufficient to power Ncore? Fat chance it will provide lower impedance than a mains outlet. All it will do is a cleaner waveform, less noise and maybe a stable voltage. Very little point in this if you are going to power a noise generator with it
Anyway, line regulation seems really unimportant compared to load regulation.
Are we talking about a regulated linear supply, or just the garden-variety, rectifier bridge plus large caps linear supply?
The regulation principle in a SMPS is, as the name implies, based on switching, whereas a linear regulator is based on a linear regulation component that works by adjusting a series resistance (that of course has to dissipate/waste a lot of power as heat).
So a SMPS is like a class D amp, while a linear regulator is just like a traditional, linear/analog amp.
Well...
I used to work for PS Audio, and I am well aware of the specs, requirements, and limitations of AC regenerators. Their current larger one has enough capacity to power a pair of nCores with the SMPS600, keep the voltage rock solid stable, and have a lower output impedance than wall. Their is no "fat chance" about it. Maybe, if the nCores were outputting a continous 400 watt sine wave test signal the larger AC regenerator might start to struggle a little, but music will never have continous power requirements anywhere near that level.
Not what i would call a great idea. Have you ever built an AC regenerator? At a power output sufficient to power Ncore? Fat chance it will provide lower impedance than a mains outlet. All it will do is a cleaner waveform, less noise and maybe a stable voltage. Very little point in this if you are going to power a noise generator with it
Anyway, line regulation seems really unimportant compared to load regulation.
I used to work for PS Audio, and I am well aware of the specs, requirements, and limitations of AC regenerators. Their current larger one has enough capacity to power a pair of nCores with the SMPS600, keep the voltage rock solid stable, and have a lower output impedance than wall. Their is no "fat chance" about it. Maybe, if the nCores were outputting a continous 400 watt sine wave test signal the larger AC regenerator might start to struggle a little, but music will never have continous power requirements anywhere near that level.
Just out of curiosity, what is the output impedance of the unit, and how much peak current can it source?
I'm using Bent audio's Hybrid True Balanced Resistor Attenuator Module's,with their PRM-1 PCB and balanced input select board. I also grabbed their toslink optical control board to control additional amps with the same PRM-1 with no loss of quality. With that you can daisy chain as many amps as you want together and control the volume with 1 remote. The optical cable only acts as communication for the control. They are awesome. The autoformers are even better if you don't mind the cost. For me I found that the resistor boards were good enough because when turned up to 61 they completely bypass the resistors and I can use the 64 bit dithered volume control in Jriver for music listening, and the attenuators for everything else. They also have a solid machined aluminum remote for $100. Just make sure your source has at least 4v of gain unless you only listen at lower levels.
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