Why the source before the amp? The average digital source outperforms the average power amplifier by a substantial margin. I understand the intuitive logic which says that "the signal comes from the source and if it's wrong there nothing will fix it" but the rest of the list is written in the order of which mucks the signal up most, not which gets to muck with it first.
In practice, swapping converters usually makes a smaller difference than swapping amps, unless at least one or both converters is flawed by design.
In practice, swapping converters usually makes a smaller difference than swapping amps, unless at least one or both converters is flawed by design.
Don't agree; the "digital source" is not entirely "digital"; most if not all digital source equipment have analog output stages which account for much of the sonic fingerprint, which is not to say that there is something wrong.
And there is still a (growing again) number of people listening to LP's....
trying to sell another amp Bruno? you don't fool me. joking 
well it's a long discussion.
I remember when I had the occasion of doing instant switching from a DAC connected to a relatively cheap CD player to direct CD output. cheapish speakers too, huge class A amp that by the looks seemed in the 5k-10k price range. can't remember the details, it was a while ago. the owner said that he did a lot of trial and error until finding the optimum speaker placement to give the best sound. the DAC was in the 200-300 eur/$ range. I don't think one realizes the extent of the difference a piece of gear makes until one does instant switching with the remote while sitting on the sofa.
well to put things mildly I was struck by it. the sound was not bad directly from the CD but the sensation of huge sound stage and texture emerging instantly was to die for. definite OMG moment.
after that we switched to my UCD amp. both me and the owner agreed that apart from more bass from the class A amp the differences were undetectable.
well it's a long discussion.
I remember when I had the occasion of doing instant switching from a DAC connected to a relatively cheap CD player to direct CD output. cheapish speakers too, huge class A amp that by the looks seemed in the 5k-10k price range. can't remember the details, it was a while ago. the owner said that he did a lot of trial and error until finding the optimum speaker placement to give the best sound. the DAC was in the 200-300 eur/$ range. I don't think one realizes the extent of the difference a piece of gear makes until one does instant switching with the remote while sitting on the sofa.
well to put things mildly I was struck by it. the sound was not bad directly from the CD but the sensation of huge sound stage and texture emerging instantly was to die for. definite OMG moment.
after that we switched to my UCD amp. both me and the owner agreed that apart from more bass from the class A amp the differences were undetectable.
Maybe, but nevertheless each type of analog stage has it's own sonic fingerprint. Do you think that the numerous threads here on I/V converters for example are there because they all measure perfect and sound the same??
No, I think they are there because most of the alternative designs have some serious flaw that is easily measurable and predictable, but which sounds euphonic and sends the whole tribe off into a hitherto unexplored new religion. The whole of professional audio relies on converters that are more or less transparent from AD input to DA output. If something as basic as an I/V converter can still make as much difference as some of those DIY ones do, it can't be because they're approaching the goal, but because they're giving it a wide berth.
Last edited:
the problem with my system is not the bass. the system I mentioned above was completely different, different room etc. I have to admit that the added bass sounded better in those conditions. it happened maybe 6 or 7 years ago so I don't remember the sensation itself but only the way I verbalized it at the moment.
I can understand how some can dread the prospect of finding a satisfactory (to avoid the term perfect) sounding system. provided that'll ever happen to me (unlikely) I'd buy a new motorbike, others may not have enough interesting hobbies
I think we need to discuss global warming and we'll have pretty much covered all off topic subjects
You know perfectly well that we are not speaking of designs which have "some serious flaw that is easily measurable and predictable, but which sounds euphonic etc....". I actually regard that as a statement of the typical "electronic engineer" telling his pupils to "listen" only with the oscilloscope and distortion meter... Differences between the various options are small and subtile but nevertheless, once again, cause sonic differences too, also in the professional field (which you confirm by saying that AD/DA converters are "more or less" transparent). Just these minor and often not so minor differences are responsible for a particular sound, and I still would put more effort here than in a good (neutral) sounding power amplifier.
I do not know this perfectly well at all. We seem to differ in what constitutes a serious flaw. The converters I am used to in the professional field definitely sound more alike than most amplifiers.
If I am trying to teach people anything at all it is to cross-reference all their sonic experiences with the corresponding measurements so they can learn how the two match up. I suggest you go easy on trying to tell me what I am or what I stand for.
If I am trying to teach people anything at all it is to cross-reference all their sonic experiences with the corresponding measurements so they can learn how the two match up. I suggest you go easy on trying to tell me what I am or what I stand for.
c'mon pieter, you can't be serious.
I really can't (and almost never could) take the "one-transistor I/V stage" crowd here seriously. are you really saying that all these people discussing over and over the sonics of a decoupling cap really know what they're doing? I've started taking diyaudio with a grain of salt a long while ago just as stopped taking any audio magazine seriously.
my personal opinion is that many followers of the "measures the same and sounds completely different" dogma would learn a few things if they bought a scope.
I've randomly changed opamps myself. I've driven I/V stages into oscillation, I've fitted super regulators. it helped but not because the sound got better (it wasn't) but because I found how hard it is to do it right. I'm not sure everyone learns from their mistakes though.
I really can't (and almost never could) take the "one-transistor I/V stage" crowd here seriously. are you really saying that all these people discussing over and over the sonics of a decoupling cap really know what they're doing? I've started taking diyaudio with a grain of salt a long while ago just as stopped taking any audio magazine seriously.
my personal opinion is that many followers of the "measures the same and sounds completely different" dogma would learn a few things if they bought a scope.
I've randomly changed opamps myself. I've driven I/V stages into oscillation, I've fitted super regulators. it helped but not because the sound got better (it wasn't) but because I found how hard it is to do it right. I'm not sure everyone learns from their mistakes though.
If two sources sound very different, one of them (or I guess both) are far from transparent. If two DACs are made to sound transparent and the engineering work is good they will sound almost or completely identical.trying to sell another amp Bruno? you don't fool me. joking
well it's a long discussion.
I remember when I had the occasion of doing instant switching from a DAC connected to a relatively cheap CD player to direct CD output. cheapish speakers too, huge class A amp that by the looks seemed in the 5k-10k price range. can't remember the details, it was a while ago. the owner said that he did a lot of trial and error until finding the optimum speaker placement to give the best sound. the DAC was in the 200-300 eur/$ range. I don't think one realizes the extent of the difference a piece of gear makes until one does instant switching with the remote while sitting on the sofa.
well to put things mildly I was struck by it. the sound was not bad directly from the CD but the sensation of huge sound stage and texture emerging instantly was to die for. definite OMG moment.
after that we switched to my UCD amp. both me and the owner agreed that apart from more bass from the class A amp the differences were undetectable.
If you're looking for a coloration from electronics in your system, I think you're in the wrong thread.
OK, agree, so it must be
.Then your earlier remark was a gross over generalization, as fortunately there are more people that cross-reference.
I was a non-believer with this until I purchased and setup my GedLee Abbeys. The measurements are great but actually seting them up and integrating four subs wtih them was not only a learning experience but I quickly adopted the Dr. Geddes way of listening. Soley through the measurements! It was clear not only on the computer screen but also to my ears that there is / was a correlation between them.
I'd love to know what you consider the important measurements of an amps sonic character. I applogize if I've missed this explanation.
Yes, I am serious, as you know
.By speaking of "the one-transistor I/V stage crowd" you are grossly overgeneralizing. Admitted there are some around here in that department, but there are quite some others too which contribute positively.
Coupling caps? They sound different, but until this day (Bruno?) nobody has been able to find out and prove why, because it can't be declared and confirmed by measurements.
now I'm the enemy?
please quote the exact phrase where I said that I'm looking for a coloration. good luck finding it because I never said that. it was a reply to the "source vs amp" thing. Bruno said that normally the average DAC is better than the average amp. that may be true but I'm not sure that many DACs are well implemented. hell I'm not sure even about mine.
if it turns that the coloration I dislike in my system is at the source or at the speakers it could mean that the UCD is actually good enough for my taste/room/hearing.
take the Benchmark DAC1 or the Musical Fidelity V-DAC. they measure very very well. IIRC the V-DAC is ~300 $/EUR. so is this DAC 90% of the Debussy sound-wise?
I've spoken to a local sound engineer who was a fan of the DAC1, then of the DA10 and now has a Forssell. he's an EE and I'd say 99.9% an objectivist. but still he spent about 3k on the Forssell, although he said before that the DA10 was just enough for him. there's a post by him on the Lavry forum mentioning the setup (Wilson Audio, Boulder, Spectral come to mind).
he said that (please remember that he's an EE) the DA10 was demodulating HF from the nearby GSM relays. I don't know what to believe but he said that the Forssell was better.
well, if we accept the argument of the authority/majority as valid, the discussion ends here, I lose, Bruno loses too.Yes, I am serious, as you know
By speaking of "the one-transistor I/V stage crowd" you are grossly overgeneralizing. Admitted there are some around here in that department, but there are quite some others too which contribute positively.
Coupling caps? They sound different, but until this day (Bruno?) nobody has been able to find out and prove why, because it can't be declared and confirmed by measurements.
but I really can't accept that kind of argument. I'm not calling names but there are some generally well-respected gurus here that I myself don't trust 100%. problem is that with their reputation also comes the group of unconditional followers and it's hard to filter. you'd be surprised what's left if one discards the group of followers: few competent but nonetheless diverging opinions.
my process of turning skeptic was long and caused by a lot of things. for instance I have this friend, a die-hard class A fan. he never heard any class D amp but knows they're evil. he's an EE too and graduated when I was maybe 12. he keeps building all sorts of class A amps and always has a bucketfull of caps to listen to. I'd ask him "how did that amp sound?" and he'd answer "great, very warm and pleasant". "how about imaging?" "well, I wasn't really paying attention to that". in time I realized he simply doesn't care about it, he focuses on tonality and texture alone. see what I mean? you really have to know the man so you can weigh his/her opinion. how many people here have I auditioned hifi with so I can have a perspective on their opinion? 2, I think.
but make no mistake, this guy is very knowledgeable and I learned a thing or two from him but at the same time there's no way I can take his opinion as a reference.
what I'm trying to tell you is that IMO you and many others are simply adhering to a school of thought that may have a lot of members but that in itself doesn't make it "the truth" or more credible than any other. just as with religion.
Last edited:
mr. push-pull,
First of all I don't think there are "enemies", "winners" or "loosers" here. That is not the function of this forum; when so, I'd be gone long ago.
Neither do I claim to know "the truth" (I am just one of those....).
I told you before that I don't like guru-ism and the phenomenon of "unconditional followers".
At the end you have to decide yourself wether you like the sound of your gear or not; nobody can provide you with an all curing solution.
Opinions on a forum might guide you in the direction of "something to try", but there is no guarantee; unconditional following seldom solves problems.
So at the same time IMO there is no need to be skeptic; other people have different opinions or perspectives (like your class A friend).
First of all I don't think there are "enemies", "winners" or "loosers" here. That is not the function of this forum; when so, I'd be gone long ago.
Neither do I claim to know "the truth" (I am just one of those....).
I told you before that I don't like guru-ism and the phenomenon of "unconditional followers".
At the end you have to decide yourself wether you like the sound of your gear or not; nobody can provide you with an all curing solution.
Opinions on a forum might guide you in the direction of "something to try", but there is no guarantee; unconditional following seldom solves problems.
So at the same time IMO there is no need to be skeptic; other people have different opinions or perspectives (like your class A friend).
- Status
- Not open for further replies.