Pieter, by clipping I refer to the electronic effect of amp clipping from insufficient power, not the opposite mechanical, transducer clipping arising from driving the tweeters into past Xmax with clean but too-high AC signal. BTW, since Tymen isn't an OEM he could only get the 400w@4ohm ncore channel. Now the Orion speaker uses an active x-over, so maybe there is a pot on it to vary the tweeter input level to enable the use of different amplifiers. It is marketed with a 60wx8ch amp, so perhaps the xover lacks that feature. If not, he could pad at the crossover if he doesn't mind fiddling with it. But better that than fiddling with the amp gain.
Quite right, I read a lot of the thread, yes Bruno said that (I'd forgotten but it rings a bell) and it makes sense. I looked at the datasheet just now and saw that the UcD180 is now stable into 1 ohm, I think that's a change. You're right, it *is* enough power for his speakers' woofers. Another 3-6dB would let him go further, that's all.
Here's my perspective. I used to design amplifiers and speakers. I don't listen loud often but once in a while. The reason for the extra amp power is to protect the drivers. You can be clipping a little, obviously at very high volume, and not realize it, which shortens the life of your drivers. Since Tymen is taking much time and work to build good speakers, he should power them well. Regarding future applications, I assure you that the UcD180 is not adequate for *full use* of passive ATC speakers, even little 2-way boxes (SCM20SL passive) with single 6.5" woofers. True, very few people would damage those speakers by clipping those amps because they wouldn't play their systems so loudly. The sound would be stellar. But those boxes are so good at high levels and so power-thirsty that you can find yourself at amp clipping when "rocking" even at 200wpc@6ohm.
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Right, but the ncore delivers full power by supplying it with over +/- 60 volts, which is not a "must"; the datasheet indicates a lowest supply voltage of +/- 35, turning the amp into a 100w/4ohm amplifier.
Oh, that's a nice solution on several counts.
EDIT: On my last point, I sounded like someone speaking against the last application, i.e. very inefficient, high-end boxes that have extraordinary power-handling mated with the UcD180s. Really, I would only caution someone to learn where clipping on their amp happens with their front end, then send them on their merry way, because these Hypex amps are a revolution. The UcDs changed the whole landscape for amplification, and now the ncore challenge the best amp circuits ever built for a fraction the cost. Yet I haven't heard either! (Well, I own some Bel Canto Icepower FWIW.) But I've spent enough years looking at distortion, relating it to sound quality, and listening to opinions of people I trust that I have no doubt whatsoever of the achievements made by Hypex. The wasteful high-end amps of the past are utterly obsolete. I also never would have believed a class-D amp could be made to measure so well as UcD, let alone ncore. It's damned unbelievable.
Cheers
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When I am right Tymen plans to build an Orion system, which he can power perfectly with UCD/Ncore amps (in terms of power I'd call it overkill for a multi amp domestic system by the way).
ATC is different, more capable of high SPL's, and not that unefficient. A better match for high power class d amplifiers. I think manufacturers like Hypex are more active in that (almost) PA market for a good reason.
I thought it's the only one if you really mean power reduction. gain reduction/input attenuation is something else. but if I recall correctly Bruno mentioned a while ago that reducing PS voltage is not a good idea.
one other reasons to avoid this is that power rails might sag below the absolute minimum. for instance because of ripple (although that can hardly be a case with a tweeter driver) or because of mains variations when using an unregulated PS. I would ensure a margin if going that route.
but to put things into perspective, with my passive 83 dB W/1m speakers my maximum power usage is below 30W. and that is pretty loud even for my years accustomed with heavy metal and loud PA systems in clubs. considering that, IMO 400W of power just for tweeters sounds like overkill.
You can drop the maximum power output in an amp almost anyplace in the circuit, but lowering the the rail voltage involves no mod at all. True, you should have a margin for sags. Also there will be a drop in some performance parameters, but nothing too serious unless you draw the LV rail straight from the main rails with a voltage divider and filter caps, but I'm sure Hypex doesn't do that.
I think ATCs are inefficient, even the big ones. Hypex certainly has a special appeal for PA, just like all efficient amps.
Tymen's system will have 6-8 amp channels, so he is spending a lot on that. The bass is where the amp money goes for a given quality of circuit, because woofers are around 6dB less efficient and would, because of his active x-over, get that much more power than the tweeters. That is, the tweeters get less than they would in a passive speaker which must pad them. The 60watt channel that usually hits the Orion tweeter yields about the same SPL as 240w combined on the woofer pair. It is unfortunate for DIYers who use line-level crossovers that our only ncore choice is a beefy one.
Oh, the Orion xover has some adjustment but perhaps not enough: "...the woofer and tweeter level adjustment range of the crossover is limited to +/-2.5 dB relative to the midrange..." Well anyhow I hate using any more pots than necessary, terrible for sound unless they are $$$.
Of course you fellas are in little countries with cozy little flats instead of in fat isolated houses like (too many) Americans, so the concept of high SPL differs...typically...things aren't very green stateside.
I think ATCs are inefficient, even the big ones. Hypex certainly has a special appeal for PA, just like all efficient amps.
Tymen's system will have 6-8 amp channels, so he is spending a lot on that. The bass is where the amp money goes for a given quality of circuit, because woofers are around 6dB less efficient and would, because of his active x-over, get that much more power than the tweeters. That is, the tweeters get less than they would in a passive speaker which must pad them. The 60watt channel that usually hits the Orion tweeter yields about the same SPL as 240w combined on the woofer pair. It is unfortunate for DIYers who use line-level crossovers that our only ncore choice is a beefy one.
Oh, the Orion xover has some adjustment but perhaps not enough: "...the woofer and tweeter level adjustment range of the crossover is limited to +/-2.5 dB relative to the midrange..." Well anyhow I hate using any more pots than necessary, terrible for sound unless they are $$$.
Of course you fellas are in little countries with cozy little flats instead of in fat isolated houses like (too many) Americans, so the concept of high SPL differs...typically...things aren't very green stateside.
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I would trade my "cozy" little flat for a mansion any day (please send offers)Of course you fellas are in little countries with cozy little flats instead of in fat isolated houses like (too many) Americans, so the concept of high SPL differs...typically...things aren't very green stateside.
even if just for the benefit o a hi-fi fiendly(er) room.but still 400W is enough to fry just about any tweeter that is meant for home use.
Bruno:
Post 410 (so that's about 1500 posts ago ) -- http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-9.html#post2725738
If you want to change Gain, that's not really all that hard. Explained in the same post at the bottom.
Post 410 (so that's about 1500 posts ago
) -- http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-9.html#post2725738If you want to change Gain, that's not really all that hard. Explained in the same post at the bottom.
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Mr cynical
I would have written one if I had received my modules, or at least initial listening impressions.
They were supposed to be shipped last friday, now I know the weather hasn't been really fantastic for transport, but over the weekend AND monday? We'll see when they arrive.
Getting impatient, would love to at least try them before my short break
There's a little review here
HYPEX Ny toppmodell forsterkermodul
In Norwegian. I don't know if it has been posted before, forgive me if it has.
I could translate, so can Google.
HYPEX Ny toppmodell forsterkermodul
In Norwegian. I don't know if it has been posted before, forgive me if it has.
I could translate, so can Google.
It would be great f you could translate the review post(s), or even just say which ones they are; thanks!
So post 410 entertains the fact that if i'm only using full range drivers at 16/ohms rated 15W minimum, 25W maximum , the Ncore would likely blow them out of the sky if the cat inadvertently cranked the volume up to max .
So seem the Ncore can be tamed to receive a smaller power supply in the same family as the one recommended for the Ncore site, and or install the proper resistor to bring down the absolute gain of the Ncore ?
My drivers are some Feastrex drivers and i would hate to mistreat them in any form or fashion by driving them to kingdom com . i'm sure they can take up to 50w Rms and just break a little sweat but then again i don't mean to drive them hard., i just want more overall presence at low volume, which my TA-2050 mono amps only drives about 25W Rms into my 16 Ohm drivers , so 50W Rms from the Ncores would be sufficient if well calibrated .
Some comments and enlightenment would be dearly appreciated at this time
regards
reo.
So seem the Ncore can be tamed to receive a smaller power supply in the same family as the one recommended for the Ncore site, and or install the proper resistor to bring down the absolute gain of the Ncore ?
My drivers are some Feastrex drivers and i would hate to mistreat them in any form or fashion by driving them to kingdom com . i'm sure they can take up to 50w Rms and just break a little sweat but then again i don't mean to drive them hard., i just want more overall presence at low volume, which my TA-2050 mono amps only drives about 25W Rms into my 16 Ohm drivers , so 50W Rms from the Ncores would be sufficient if well calibrated .
Some comments and enlightenment would be dearly appreciated at this time
regards
reo.
mr cynic here
it basically says "it's a great amp". comparing against something, anything at all should help put things into perspective a bit. but that's just me...
this lack of convincing reports might even make me come up with some crazy ideas. I might even begin building some John Curl design. combined with this winter-induced sort of cabin fever God knows what might happen
Reo
Your best quality "1st watt" comes with the higher supply voltage, and therefore the higher maximum power. Therefore to get the best 1st watt and to limit the total power out of the amp you need to go with a high psu voltage and to control maximum power that can be produced by the maximum voltage swing of your source. Either attenuate your source or change the gain of the power amp.
Your best quality "1st watt" comes with the higher supply voltage, and therefore the higher maximum power. Therefore to get the best 1st watt and to limit the total power out of the amp you need to go with a high psu voltage and to control maximum power that can be produced by the maximum voltage swing of your source. Either attenuate your source or change the gain of the power amp.
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By source.. you mean what plugs in to the amp ? if so it would be my Dac's voltage swing ? in any there is some , my I/V legato3 stage is trimed to 0V .
On another note, is the SMPS600 the appropriate candidate...?
I will also look in to see what is required to attenuate the gain of the amp.
regards
reo
On another note, is the SMPS600 the appropriate candidate...?
I will also look in to see what is required to attenuate the gain of the amp.
regards
reo
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