Has the 53 db gain from 20 hz to 20 khz anything to do with the advantage of microdynamics in class A amplifiers ?
Hello i am new to this forum and to the diy community in general and the main
reason for me to begin is the high expectations in the ncore technology.
Thanks for any reply , especially Bruno's
Hello i am new to this forum and to the diy community in general and the main
reason for me to begin is the high expectations in the ncore technology.
Thanks for any reply , especially Bruno's
Welcome to the forum Leonkara,
I still consider myself rather new on this forum and there certainly are many much more experienced and knowlegdeable people around here than me who may be better to provide you with a reasonable answer.
I have not heard of the 53db gain you mention, so could you please specify what you mean by this as i could imagine that it would help people to answer your question?
That said, my experience with amplifiers is primarily of an empirical nature meaning that I listen to the adjustments i make and relate to what I hear. To my experience amps do sound very different and there are other factors than their class of operation that matters to the sound they produce. IMHO class A amps aren´t better than other types though many believe so. I often find good class A/B and D amps to sound better to my ears, and the micro-dynamics which you imply to be better with class A is to my ears moreoften a matter of recessed macro-dynamics and coloration, IMHO of course.
The problem here is that very few amp topologies will operate equally well with high and low bias settings (the amount of current that always flow through the output stage). SKA makes amps that are said to be able of both class AB and A, but i think they are rare in that regard. As a personal experience I can tell you that am in the process of getting the most from a class AB MOSFET amp and playing with its bias settings sure alters its sound. This specific amp seems to sound at its best with only very little bias, just enough to get the FETs slightly luke-warm. If i give it slightly more, the amp sounds bloated and thick as it blurres the complexity of the music. It does appear to produce more warmth and a bit more "inner-sweatness" to instruments but at the expense of everything else. That doesn´t mean that other amps will react similarily, but more bias ehnce more class A operation surely doesn´t seem to always be preferable -to my ears, of course
cheers,
I still consider myself rather new on this forum and there certainly are many much more experienced and knowlegdeable people around here than me who may be better to provide you with a reasonable answer.
I have not heard of the 53db gain you mention, so could you please specify what you mean by this as i could imagine that it would help people to answer your question?
That said, my experience with amplifiers is primarily of an empirical nature meaning that I listen to the adjustments i make and relate to what I hear. To my experience amps do sound very different and there are other factors than their class of operation that matters to the sound they produce. IMHO class A amps aren´t better than other types though many believe so. I often find good class A/B and D amps to sound better to my ears, and the micro-dynamics which you imply to be better with class A is to my ears moreoften a matter of recessed macro-dynamics and coloration, IMHO of course.
The problem here is that very few amp topologies will operate equally well with high and low bias settings (the amount of current that always flow through the output stage). SKA makes amps that are said to be able of both class AB and A, but i think they are rare in that regard. As a personal experience I can tell you that am in the process of getting the most from a class AB MOSFET amp and playing with its bias settings sure alters its sound. This specific amp seems to sound at its best with only very little bias, just enough to get the FETs slightly luke-warm. If i give it slightly more, the amp sounds bloated and thick as it blurres the complexity of the music. It does appear to produce more warmth and a bit more "inner-sweatness" to instruments but at the expense of everything else. That doesn´t mean that other amps will react similarily, but more bias ehnce more class A operation surely doesn´t seem to always be preferable -to my ears, of course
cheers,
Last edited:
Juhleren, I have similar experience with some class A designs. bass can sometimes sound overemphasized with these topologies and with some bass-shy speakers that can be pleasant, at least at the first listen but fatiguing on the long term. what I find intriguing is that the same units are much praised by others over what to my ears sounds like bloated and detail-masking bass. this is not to say that all class A amps sound like this.
Hmmm.
Real live music has a really warm sound to my ears-much like the sound reproduced by Pass XA .5 series class A amps. As opposed to much of what seems to be the Hi Fi sound I hear at many shows. Although I would not say that the Pass XA .5 series amps are "soft" at all. Same goes for Vitus Class A designs, transparent, and naturally warm to my ears.
So many class D amps seem to miss out on this part of the musical spectrum. And I am not talking about additive colorations, although some older class A designs certainly have these (Aleph series). I am hopeful that the nCores finally deliver a class D amp which does not compromise musical values.
mr_push_pull,
Yes, that bass over-emphasis and reduced dynamic-contrast too (overly warm and soft sound signature) is what i dislike many class A amps for. But as you say, there must be exceptions out there I am sure. Haven´t heard everything of course
Real live music has a really warm sound to my ears-much like the sound reproduced by Pass XA .5 series class A amps. As opposed to much of what seems to be the Hi Fi sound I hear at many shows. Although I would not say that the Pass XA .5 series amps are "soft" at all. Same goes for Vitus Class A designs, transparent, and naturally warm to my ears.
So many class D amps seem to miss out on this part of the musical spectrum. And I am not talking about additive colorations, although some older class A designs certainly have these (Aleph series). I am hopeful that the nCores finally deliver a class D amp which does not compromise musical values.
the fact that many audiophiles choose the Pass XA series (including renowned mastering engineer Bob Katz) is most likely no accident.
on the other hand, I think that too many people choose the class A topology thinking that it is inherently superior, regardless of implementation. some sound like crap IMO, with the only notable sonic character being the slow, emphasized bass.
some friend which tested many Pass designs confirmed that the sonic signatures vary a lot and some are nothing to write home about. I would expect that the best are the commercial ones, if you get my point
I would also like to friendly remind everyone that this is a discussion about the Hypex NCORE amplifier
on the other hand, I think that too many people choose the class A topology thinking that it is inherently superior, regardless of implementation. some sound like crap IMO, with the only notable sonic character being the slow, emphasized bass.
some friend which tested many Pass designs confirmed that the sonic signatures vary a lot and some are nothing to write home about. I would expect that the best are the commercial ones, if you get my point
I would also like to friendly remind everyone that this is a discussion about the Hypex NCORE amplifier
I would also like to friendly remind everyone that this is a discussion about the Hypex NCORE amplifier
I don't see a problem, within this thread, in discussing where class d stands in relation to other topologies.
Barrows opinion is one I agree with.
Honestly...
My point was to express my hope that the nCore is a real advancement over previous class D tech, which will address the weakness I hear in the previous class D amps. Seems to me this is right on topic! Mentioning other topologies and amplifiers as reference points is completely relevant.
pieter, you are wrong. this is not a thread about class D in general. please open one about class D vs class A vs class AB vs robocop if you'd like to
the axe you're trying to grind is too large to hide.
My point was to express my hope that the nCore is a real advancement over previous class D tech, which will address the weakness I hear in the previous class D amps. Seems to me this is right on topic! Mentioning other topologies and amplifiers as reference points is completely relevant.
pieter, you are wrong. this is not a thread about class D in general. please open one about class D vs class A vs class AB vs robocop if you'd like to
the axe you're trying to grind is too large to hide.
Right
Cheers
Stein
I think you are all correct on Pieter having an axe to grind. However I think you are wrong about which axe it is.
You think it is the anti Class D axe. But actually he is wielding the let's have a listen before we proclaim long live the new emperor. And I'm with Pieter on that one. I've had hypex groupies mail me and tell me that the Ucd's were the end of audio history. Then I had a listen and I was relieved that yes there were things they did very well. Especially at the cost. But still I felt no need to sell my tubes and output transformers.
And all the distortion measurements in the world don't mean one iota to me. The opinion of Bruno Putzeys however does carry significant weight from my point of view. Because here is someone who actually knows how to appreciate sound quality.
You think it is the anti Class D axe. But actually he is wielding the let's have a listen before we proclaim long live the new emperor. And I'm with Pieter on that one. I've had hypex groupies mail me and tell me that the Ucd's were the end of audio history. Then I had a listen and I was relieved that yes there were things they did very well. Especially at the cost. But still I felt no need to sell my tubes and output transformers.
And all the distortion measurements in the world don't mean one iota to me. The opinion of Bruno Putzeys however does carry significant weight from my point of view. Because here is someone who actually knows how to appreciate sound quality.
I don't disagree with this one, but the last few replies are already contradictory. what does one make of this? it doesn't add anything useful. am I the one who's right? or is it you or barrows? what's the truth?
if you'd like my frank opinion, I totally agree with Bruno as to the fact that most of the sonic character of some class A designs is perfectly explainable and most likely you won't find it in a very low damping factor, low distortion design.
I never denied that that bloated bass can be pleasant in some circumstances but OTOH when faced with the sound of a ruler-flat frequency response, very low damping-factor amp, I don't have many doubts which one has the "right" sound.
also, Bob Katz which I mentioned above has switched from the XA to Lipinski class D amps. not trying to invoke the argument of authority here but just trying to point at the futility of this debate.
tube amps with 5% THD get good reviews all the time. so do many (Hypex-based or not) class D amps.
some (commercial) class A amps yielded in my system that bloated bass that many are mentioning. still many rave about that sound. I repeat the question: WHO is right and who is wrong? what I'm getting at should be obvious.
all manufacturers would have us believe their products re the end all be all and still I don't see consensus. what's the reason for this?
and I would disagree that measurements don't tell a thing. it's us being unable to correctly interpret them in the context of human hearing and that will stay unchanged for a long period of time, making audio design a somewhat random excercise.
Let's wait and see what Ncore has to offer.
I am not against class D or whatever well executed topology; actually I built some class D amps to see how they perform, especially in terms of sound quality.
Among these were Hypex (stock version, "better" input op-amp version, even tube front end transformer coupled version), and Philips (now NXP) TDA8920.
Almost always the Hypex amps were best in the bass department, and the TDA8920 sounded most of the time a bit finer in mid and treble.
Like class d you can not generalize other topologies because differences within a particular topology can be huge.
I am not against class D or whatever well executed topology; actually I built some class D amps to see how they perform, especially in terms of sound quality.
Among these were Hypex (stock version, "better" input op-amp version, even tube front end transformer coupled version), and Philips (now NXP) TDA8920.
Almost always the Hypex amps were best in the bass department, and the TDA8920 sounded most of the time a bit finer in mid and treble.
Like class d you can not generalize other topologies because differences within a particular topology can be huge.
I am right. Everyone else is wrong!
On a more serious note. I'm just glad Hypex is considering the diy community. Let's face it. Audio has been living off the scraps of technology from other fields. The resurgent tube, lp and new tech such as computer audio, Class D, SIT. Field Coil speakers. Wideband drivers. Bla. bla. bla. And what else have you. Makes for interesting times. Then again there is a Chinese curse which goes something like this. "May you live in interesting times!"
Last edited:
Barrows,
As I see it there are many good designs out there of any class -even class B (or in reality just very close to). What i meant to say is that that to my ears class A as a mode of operation isn´t necessarily preferable to other classes although many seem to suggest that. To my ears each class bares both pros and cons along with their inherent construction but, as I tried to express, other factors often play a far greater role than the mode of operation. A very different aspect is of course personal preferences which inherently varies making us prefer some virtues and some downsides over others.
I am not sure what you mean by "real live music has a warm sound to my ears". To my experience that depends on what is performed -and where. Oh boy acoustics sound different and any amp that makes the different room ambiances sound similar is adding something to the mix -also no matter what the class of operation is. I personally just get tired of hearing records sounding more or less the same, and that is an inherent problem in any "HIFI" and (often even worse in many) "HI-END" components.
cheers,
I'am copying from ncore wp.pdf ''
Across the audio band, loop gain never drops below
53dB. Compare this to linear amplifiers that may
have much more at 10Hz, but rarely better than
25dB at the end of the audio range. In fact, most
likely you have indeed never heard an amplifier
with “a lot of feedback”, although you may have
certain ideas about feedback based on hearing
amplifiers that you thought had a lot of feedback.
Time to try and to be very surprised what it sounds
like ''
I was referring to this one that is supposed to be unique in the industry.
Across the audio band, loop gain never drops below
53dB. Compare this to linear amplifiers that may
have much more at 10Hz, but rarely better than
25dB at the end of the audio range. In fact, most
likely you have indeed never heard an amplifier
with “a lot of feedback”, although you may have
certain ideas about feedback based on hearing
amplifiers that you thought had a lot of feedback.
Time to try and to be very surprised what it sounds
like ''
I was referring to this one that is supposed to be unique in the industry.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.