Peak power maybe, but continuous? Don't believe that.
When that amount of power is absorbed by the crossover you might consider active filtering.
off course peak power.
i thought about active filtering but it would cost a fortune.
it`s 4 way with dual voice coil woofer and different xover for each coil.
it would take 10 chanels of amplification plus eq.
it could work like that.
with ucd700 and ucd2k at the bass it works
but xover point is at 200hz so the demand is bigger
at mid high than in low frequencies.
but the passive filters must remain.
the woofer doesn`t work without them.
selling some ucds and making bridged ncore is the safest way to go.
they have 1600watt at 4ohms.
i am only waiting to see the price.
with ucd700 and ucd2k at the bass it works
but xover point is at 200hz so the demand is bigger
at mid high than in low frequencies.
but the passive filters must remain.
the woofer doesn`t work without them.
selling some ucds and making bridged ncore is the safest way to go.
they have 1600watt at 4ohms.
i am only waiting to see the price.
back,
I think the suggestions on a bi-amping approach seems very reasonable especially taking the specifics of your speakers into account.
You will probably find that the XO point at 200Hz offers a great possibility to seek different purposes for the amp above XO and for that (or those) below XO as you most likely will find app. 80% of the power to be consumed below that XO. Taking that into account a single nCore offering 200 solid watts into 8ohm may be adequate regarding power above XO. Below a ucd2k or two ucd700´s would seem perfect for the bass section where the finer resolution of the new nCore probably won´t come through as audibly as in the mid and tweeter section.
Bi-amping of two nCore´s should be plausible and i think Bruno has stated somewhere earlier in this thread that it should be. 1600W @ 4R may be to expect too much though, as that would rely on the modules being able to double power from 4ohm to 2ohm which I think is more than Bruno suggested they would be able to. If they can spit out about 600W into a two ohm load, they should be able to offer 1200W (4ohm) in a bridge. The real bottleneck should then be the current capabilities as they remain unchanged in a bridge configuration although the voltage capabilities are doubled, but Bruno has promised the nCore to be very low impedance and current capable so they should be perfect for a bridged configuration.
BTW -what kind of speakers do you have, and are there any possibilities for reducing the losses (and complexity) in the crossovers as it is my humble experience that power losses most often are followed by other types of losses and distortion -and to a very audible degree.
cheers,
I think the suggestions on a bi-amping approach seems very reasonable especially taking the specifics of your speakers into account.
You will probably find that the XO point at 200Hz offers a great possibility to seek different purposes for the amp above XO and for that (or those) below XO as you most likely will find app. 80% of the power to be consumed below that XO. Taking that into account a single nCore offering 200 solid watts into 8ohm may be adequate regarding power above XO. Below a ucd2k or two ucd700´s would seem perfect for the bass section where the finer resolution of the new nCore probably won´t come through as audibly as in the mid and tweeter section.
Bi-amping of two nCore´s should be plausible and i think Bruno has stated somewhere earlier in this thread that it should be. 1600W @ 4R may be to expect too much though, as that would rely on the modules being able to double power from 4ohm to 2ohm which I think is more than Bruno suggested they would be able to. If they can spit out about 600W into a two ohm load, they should be able to offer 1200W (4ohm) in a bridge. The real bottleneck should then be the current capabilities as they remain unchanged in a bridge configuration although the voltage capabilities are doubled, but Bruno has promised the nCore to be very low impedance and current capable so they should be perfect for a bridged configuration.
BTW -what kind of speakers do you have, and are there any possibilities for reducing the losses (and complexity) in the crossovers as it is my humble experience that power losses most often are followed by other types of losses and distortion -and to a very audible degree.
cheers,
guys thank you all for giving your opinion but i have these speakers for years and
i already tried biamping not with hypex but with different amps.
my findings are that at 200hz where the xover point is 60% of the power needed is
at mid high section.
theory confirms that as i found out that the 50% xover point is 300hz.
in practise biamping worked well with the only limitation maximum spl from the mid high amps and no loss at sound quality.
juhleren propbly you are right that 1600watt is wrong but even 1200 is enough.
my ucd2ks have 1kva transformers and drive the speakers with easy.
ucd 700`s are a bit limited.
here is a link with my speakers
Infinity Renaissance Serie
and crossover schematics.
if somebody have the knowledge to understand what changes i could do at the crossovers at make the woofer section active i would be happy to hear it.
but passive biamping i am not interested.
p.s. it`s the 90.
i already tried biamping not with hypex but with different amps.
my findings are that at 200hz where the xover point is 60% of the power needed is
at mid high section.
theory confirms that as i found out that the 50% xover point is 300hz.
in practise biamping worked well with the only limitation maximum spl from the mid high amps and no loss at sound quality.
juhleren propbly you are right that 1600watt is wrong but even 1200 is enough.
my ucd2ks have 1kva transformers and drive the speakers with easy.
ucd 700`s are a bit limited.
here is a link with my speakers
Infinity Renaissance Serie
and crossover schematics.
if somebody have the knowledge to understand what changes i could do at the crossovers at make the woofer section active i would be happy to hear it.
but passive biamping i am not interested.
p.s. it`s the 90.
Last edited:
...or change loudspeakers.
you shouldn`t say that especially when you know how they sound.
back,
Its good that you have investigated the power issue yourself and found indications of the distribution of the power needs for your very "special" speaker. The crossovers are as you suggest not easy to exchange with active ones though everything should be possible the time you probably need to invest in doing so would probably be better spent at designing something entirely new and more "up to date" (not to disregard a speaker i haven´t heard, but the complexity of the XO coupled with its very, very low efficiency is not how most seem to do things nowadays).
The biggie here is probably that your speakers besides being of low sensitivity also seem to have a very low impedance (two 4ohm VC´s in parallel in the woofer in a 4way parallel arrangement) which means that you rely on an amp that can provide not only high voltages but also very high currents at the same time. Remember when you bridge you won´t get any gains regarding current capabilities, only voltage which then relies on the current capabilities too (and in a very high degree due to your very low impedance speakers). I think with your speakers most amps (and especially a bridged one) would clip due to current shortage rather than voltage. Again the question is: did you find the amps to struggle due to current or voltage limitations hence would a current capable amp with a healthy 70V swing do the job or do you really need more voltage? My guess is that you more likely have experienced the current limitations of the amps you mention rather than the voltage limitations alone. 1kVA toroid isn´t that much in my book and if it can do the job, it may be the current you really should be hunting and not just high watt specs.
just my 2c
Its good that you have investigated the power issue yourself and found indications of the distribution of the power needs for your very "special" speaker. The crossovers are as you suggest not easy to exchange with active ones though everything should be possible the time you probably need to invest in doing so would probably be better spent at designing something entirely new and more "up to date" (not to disregard a speaker i haven´t heard, but the complexity of the XO coupled with its very, very low efficiency is not how most seem to do things nowadays).
The biggie here is probably that your speakers besides being of low sensitivity also seem to have a very low impedance (two 4ohm VC´s in parallel in the woofer in a 4way parallel arrangement) which means that you rely on an amp that can provide not only high voltages but also very high currents at the same time. Remember when you bridge you won´t get any gains regarding current capabilities, only voltage which then relies on the current capabilities too (and in a very high degree due to your very low impedance speakers). I think with your speakers most amps (and especially a bridged one) would clip due to current shortage rather than voltage. Again the question is: did you find the amps to struggle due to current or voltage limitations hence would a current capable amp with a healthy 70V swing do the job or do you really need more voltage? My guess is that you more likely have experienced the current limitations of the amps you mention rather than the voltage limitations alone. 1kVA toroid isn´t that much in my book and if it can do the job, it may be the current you really should be hunting and not just high watt specs.
just my 2c
juhleren i had the same thoughts as you but the xover is not what it seems
at first sight.
the woofer voice coils are 4 and 2 ohm not both 4.
the 2ohm coil is only working at the resonant frequency of the cabinet
where every speaker reaches 15-30ohm impedance.
the result of this is one of the most constant impedance curves i have ever
see at a speaker.
measurements confirmed that.
it`s from 3 to 3.3 ohm from 27-20.000hz!!!.
dear sp502.
there is no problem to solve.
every speaker have it`s requirements and my speaker is a bit special.
ucd2k`s took care of that.
it would be nice if i could upgrade to ncore but if i can`t i will still be happy
with what i have.
I do think the speaker has a very complex crossover filter, and I would be concerned with the capacitor and inductor in series with the woofer, they do reduce the control the amp can have over the voice coil. In my view - but this is of course a personal opinion - this is a classic example of a speaker that would benefit from having the whole crossover filter replaced by an active crossover system and amps driving the speaker elements directly.
The dynamical properties may show a very different story as the acceleration and deceleration of the drivers cones(masses) through all those filter components and their ringing properly creates a lot of out of phase operation for the attached amplifiers. That means the speaker in reality draws current like it has an even lower impedance than what the 3 ohm suggests.
If you think of the impedance in that perspective it is not that strange that even the mighty ucd700 with its 28A limit is on its knees. It shouldn´t sweat too much if the 3ohm is what it really saw under dynamical conditions, but i bet it isn´t ;-)
Play at lower volume settings and enjoy the speakers as they are designed or do something else with the speakers as suggested. More power is like putting an even larger engine in an already very heavy car -it will never be a race car unless you strip down the weight, only more expensive. If you strip it, it will go much faster with much less power, especially under extreme conditions.
cheers,
why you guys are trying to find a solution at a non existing problem?
the speaker was designed that way.
at resonant frequency where all the speakers suck the minimum power it sucks power like crazy.
in exchange you get 27hz from a 10 inch at 32lt cabinet.
it`s something like a passive linkwitz transform.
exchanges power for extension like the small high powered amps do.
give it enough power and it sounds good.
bruno i don`t know what spikes you are talking about.
0.3ohm is not spikes.
the speaker was designed that way.
at resonant frequency where all the speakers suck the minimum power it sucks power like crazy.
in exchange you get 27hz from a 10 inch at 32lt cabinet.
it`s something like a passive linkwitz transform.
exchanges power for extension like the small high powered amps do.
give it enough power and it sounds good.
bruno i don`t know what spikes you are talking about.
0.3ohm is not spikes.
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