Same here! But I suspect that a 10 Watt module will not be so much cheaper, and becasue even the 400 Watt version performs excellent at low power, and because it is intended to make only 1 DIY version, I understand that a 400 Watt version will suit most of us...
Hi,
don't we know psychoacoustical masking for a long time (read e.g. Blauert)? I "believe", that the amp distortions in its normal working range should be well inside the masking areas (SPL, deltaf, time) of the driver's distortion.
What means back EMF distortion? It will all be harmonic distortion or IMD at the end of line (to be measured by a microphone).
If there is impedance nonlinearity (may be caused by external changes) it will experienced as current distortion through the VC.
Check Klippels website (not only) for a listening test!
Please, measure the experienced distortions, group delay distortions and burst decay too if you want, and let us discuss/interpret it using the graphs.
To stay serious.
Thank you.
Cheers, Timo
don't we know psychoacoustical masking for a long time (read e.g. Blauert)? I "believe", that the amp distortions in its normal working range should be well inside the masking areas (SPL, deltaf, time) of the driver's distortion.
What means back EMF distortion? It will all be harmonic distortion or IMD at the end of line (to be measured by a microphone).
If there is impedance nonlinearity (may be caused by external changes) it will experienced as current distortion through the VC.
Check Klippels website (not only) for a listening test!
Please, measure the experienced distortions, group delay distortions and burst decay too if you want, and let us discuss/interpret it using the graphs.
To stay serious.
Thank you.
Cheers, Timo
So this means there is no audible difference between amplifiers because everything is masked by the driver's distortion....
The main issue with "frugal Ncore" is that cost-wise there's not much to shave off below 200W. Every now and then JP pings me to ask if I could make a downsized UcD180LP and make it cheaper. The answer is "yes, but not so much cheaper that it'll pay back easily".
The price of the DIY modules is another matter. We insist on running a DIY line mainly because it's emotionally rewarding but on the other hand it has to make business sense. The DIY modules don't sell in huge quantities but it costs exactly as much to develop an HG module as an OEM module. And while professional customers cause our support department a lot more trouble than DIY'ers (you read that correctly: DIY customers do much fewer stupid things than pros), resolving a pro's technical question is written off over thousands of modules where the DIY customer only buys two.
Actually this is why we don't particularly like group buys. You give a volume discount but then you still have to help out individual customers. A similar problem happens with modules sold through reps. The buyers ring Hypex, not the rep. That's why we prefer to sell directly.
About power ratings, well... Normal "critical listening" levels hover around a long-term average of 85db SPL at the listening position. If we're assuming uncorrelated signals (rather inaccurate assumption but it'll do for the purpose) that is 82dB SPL for each speaker alone. Crudely calculating back from a 2m listening distance to the 1m standard measuring distance that's 88dBSPL, one speaker, one meter. It's not unusual for speakers to have an efficiency of 88dB/1w/1m so 1W is roughly the required amplifier power.
The current crop of unlistenable hypersquashed pop music has a peak to average range of around 4dB. So all it takes to reproduce pop at a reasonable level without clipping is a 4dBW (2.5W) rated amp.
Before the loudness war got into swing (say until the early 90's) peak-to-average ranges up to 14dB could be found in mainstream music. To play Sultans of Swing at the same average level requires an amp rated at 14dBW or 25W.
Classical music tends not to have dynamics compression on it (although I hear the loudness war has leaked into classical ranks too) but usually the dynamic range is manually managed (by gain riding) to about 16dB. You need 40W to deliver such recordings at a comfortable volume. Classical albums do exist though that have no gain riding and peak-to-average ratios of 20dB or more do occur. Wagner lands us into triple digit territory.
Note that I said comfortable volume, not realistic volume. Symphony orchestras can get very loud. An oft quoted number is 115dB SPL. That's 30dB over our 85dBSPL reference level, indicating a 1kW amp is in order.
First conclusion: Nelson Pass is a Dire Straits fan.
Second conclusion: clipping often goes unnoticed. It pays to build a clip detector into an amp just to get an idea of whether it happens. You'd be surprised how some kinds of material can sustain a lot of clipping before anyone notices. You can slice almost 10dB off the top of a snare hit with not much more than some fattening of the sound.
I think the above should make it clear that people who need more than 25W are not doing anything wrong. The only reason why you can say that more than a few 100W is overdoing it, is because at such levels the occasional clipping event isn't going to spoil the fun.
The price of the DIY modules is another matter. We insist on running a DIY line mainly because it's emotionally rewarding but on the other hand it has to make business sense. The DIY modules don't sell in huge quantities but it costs exactly as much to develop an HG module as an OEM module. And while professional customers cause our support department a lot more trouble than DIY'ers (you read that correctly: DIY customers do much fewer stupid things than pros), resolving a pro's technical question is written off over thousands of modules where the DIY customer only buys two.
Actually this is why we don't particularly like group buys. You give a volume discount but then you still have to help out individual customers. A similar problem happens with modules sold through reps. The buyers ring Hypex, not the rep. That's why we prefer to sell directly.
About power ratings, well... Normal "critical listening" levels hover around a long-term average of 85db SPL at the listening position. If we're assuming uncorrelated signals (rather inaccurate assumption but it'll do for the purpose) that is 82dB SPL for each speaker alone. Crudely calculating back from a 2m listening distance to the 1m standard measuring distance that's 88dBSPL, one speaker, one meter. It's not unusual for speakers to have an efficiency of 88dB/1w/1m so 1W is roughly the required amplifier power.
The current crop of unlistenable hypersquashed pop music has a peak to average range of around 4dB. So all it takes to reproduce pop at a reasonable level without clipping is a 4dBW (2.5W) rated amp.
Before the loudness war got into swing (say until the early 90's) peak-to-average ranges up to 14dB could be found in mainstream music. To play Sultans of Swing at the same average level requires an amp rated at 14dBW or 25W.
Classical music tends not to have dynamics compression on it (although I hear the loudness war has leaked into classical ranks too) but usually the dynamic range is manually managed (by gain riding) to about 16dB. You need 40W to deliver such recordings at a comfortable volume. Classical albums do exist though that have no gain riding and peak-to-average ratios of 20dB or more do occur. Wagner lands us into triple digit territory.
Note that I said comfortable volume, not realistic volume. Symphony orchestras can get very loud. An oft quoted number is 115dB SPL. That's 30dB over our 85dBSPL reference level, indicating a 1kW amp is in order.
First conclusion: Nelson Pass is a Dire Straits fan.
Second conclusion: clipping often goes unnoticed. It pays to build a clip detector into an amp just to get an idea of whether it happens. You'd be surprised how some kinds of material can sustain a lot of clipping before anyone notices. You can slice almost 10dB off the top of a snare hit with not much more than some fattening of the sound.
I think the above should make it clear that people who need more than 25W are not doing anything wrong. The only reason why you can say that more than a few 100W is overdoing it, is because at such levels the occasional clipping event isn't going to spoil the fun.
I think if we look at the prices of the current high-end market (including some of your OEM customers), we still get very good value for money, and we have the additional fun of building it and making it work!
I think every DIYer should see DIY as a hobby, and not as a way to get good stuf for cheap (which is of course possible, if we don't charge ourselves an acceptable hourly rate...)
Of course, if we really want to have some "fun", we could try and design an ncore++ amp ourselves. But reading some of issues involved, I think I will just buy some boards from you...
Very much appreciated that you supply to the DIY-community, more OEMs should do this!
I think every DIYer should see DIY as a hobby, and not as a way to get good stuf for cheap (which is of course possible, if we don't charge ourselves an acceptable hourly rate...)
Of course, if we really want to have some "fun", we could try and design an ncore++ amp ourselves. But reading some of issues involved, I think I will just buy some boards from you...
Very much appreciated that you supply to the DIY-community, more OEMs should do this!
Bruno, this may hurry you up with releasing the NC: until I get my hands on it I'm forced to use my DIY Pass F4 amplifier (no voltage gain and no feedback!). I can post pictures to prove the torture my speakers are forced to endure. I need to lower distortion at least 100000 times, please don't let this abomination go on for too long...
now on a more serious note (although all the above is true), I'm really planning to build a no-compromise but cost-conscious amplifier based on the NC. although this may have been discussed before, which setup would you recommend for best results? dual PS? linear or switching? (I'm talking about the Hypex SMPS, of course)
now on a more serious note (although all the above is true), I'm really planning to build a no-compromise but cost-conscious amplifier based on the NC. although this may have been discussed before, which setup would you recommend for best results? dual PS? linear or switching? (I'm talking about the Hypex SMPS, of course)
I'm glad Bruno set the record straight. I own 7W, 50W, 100W and 200W amps. The 7W amps sound better than all of them (no prizes for guessing what they are). However 1-2% of the time I listen to them, they are not powerful enough. Classical, especially organ music, cannot be reproduced anywhere near properly by 7W in my opinion, even at low levels.
Dare I say it, in a home theatre system, movies require a LOT more power. Although I realise most people here probably won't use their amps for home cinema; it's still nice to have an amp that can, rather than one that can't, assuming there are no other compromises.
AFAIK producing a 1Khz sine wave (for RMS WPC testing purposes) is a lot easier for an amp than reproducing an explosion, at the same time as speech, at the same time as a soundtrack.
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I am definitely a latecomer to this discussion (and the whole board), but just spent some time reading up on this whole thread. I am planning to convert my Linn Isobariks from the original "Domestic Monitor System" configuration to active. The "Professional" version from Linn had the wires from the speaker pairs (2 KEF 139B's in Isobaric configuration, 2 KEF 110's as mids and 2 ScanSpeak/Hiquphon tweeters per box) brought out separately, with the filter network placed externally under the box, so that it was possible to use a separate active filter box with a second order 200 Hz filter between bass and middle, 2700 Hz fourth order between mid and high, and a special bass compensation/boost in the 20-50 Hz region driving 3 Naim NAP200/250's.
What I want is to make a modern version of the active version, using the Hypex DLCP feeding 4 channels of amplification per speaker - one each for the two woofers, and one each for the mid and tweeter. Until now my plan was to use 2 UcD400HGs driving the bass elements, an additional UcD400HG driving the 2 KEF 110 mids, and either a UcD400HG or a UcD180HG driving the 2 dome tweeters.
Now, with the Ncore on the horizon (and pretty much in the same time frame as the DLCP) I am of course tempted to use the NC instead - probably won't make much of a difference for the woofers, but considering how hard the B139's are to drive, the current drive capability of the NC might be useful. But is a dedicated NC driving the tweeters too much of an overkill?
Cheers,
Julf
What I want is to make a modern version of the active version, using the Hypex DLCP feeding 4 channels of amplification per speaker - one each for the two woofers, and one each for the mid and tweeter. Until now my plan was to use 2 UcD400HGs driving the bass elements, an additional UcD400HG driving the 2 KEF 110 mids, and either a UcD400HG or a UcD180HG driving the 2 dome tweeters.
Now, with the Ncore on the horizon (and pretty much in the same time frame as the DLCP) I am of course tempted to use the NC instead - probably won't make much of a difference for the woofers, but considering how hard the B139's are to drive, the current drive capability of the NC might be useful. But is a dedicated NC driving the tweeters too much of an overkill?
Cheers,
Julf
Bruno,
Would you feel comfortable using the NC400 to power a compression driver in the home? Even with proper attenuation prior to the amp I'd be concerned about blowing up my ears (or the drivers) if the amp malfunctioned (or popped at on/off).
Thanks
As this is our best technology level we have now we will only sell the NCORE(R) modules direct. We are selling our products world wide direct from our webshop (easy to find), we have many customers in North America who buys direct.
Jan-Peter
@julf The improvement that is most immediately obvious when changing to Ncore is precisely the highs. My guess would be that if I could change only one amp in an active system it'd be the tweeter amp.
@fb We don't see too many popping amps, so I shouldn't worry. In the rare case it does there's the DC fault protection to limit the damage. Note your PSU must have some means of shutting down in response to the fault signal. I'm not entirely sure if it's fast enough to protect a HF driver because it shouldn't trigger falsely on bass heavy material. As for your ears, the noise made by a blown amp is a single step function which doesn't make a lot of noise. Your ears are quite safe.
@fb We don't see too many popping amps, so I shouldn't worry. In the rare case it does there's the DC fault protection to limit the damage. Note your PSU must have some means of shutting down in response to the fault signal. I'm not entirely sure if it's fast enough to protect a HF driver because it shouldn't trigger falsely on bass heavy material. As for your ears, the noise made by a blown amp is a single step function which doesn't make a lot of noise. Your ears are quite safe.
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