This commercial product happens to be a leap forward in terms of Class D amps' performance (at least in terms of measurements, the validity of which no one has challenged as far as I recall; on the contrary, someone insinuated these measurements could be even better if we use a "better" SMPS, which is impressive and I'm sure this will be demonstrated as soon as he gets his hands on nCore modules).
IMO this is the right place to discuss about nCore and any other relevant tech subject (e.g. peer reviewed papers pertaining to the design decisions that led to this amp or even how to objectively improve the amp's performance).
IMO this is the right place to discuss about nCore and any other relevant tech subject (e.g. peer reviewed papers pertaining to the design decisions that led to this amp or even how to objectively improve the amp's performance).
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Uhm..... that remains to be seen (or heard...).
The product is not yet available; I haven't read user comments.
Claiming leaps forward based on measurements...... we have heard enough of this in audio.
Actually, "leaps forwared based on measurements" are the only leaps forward I would expect to be mentioned in a technical discussion.
When the discussion turns too poetic (like the language found in audio magazines), I'll be with you in asking the thread to be transfered in the Vendors' section.
I don't question that this forum is the right place; within the forum however the discussion should take place in the Commercial Sector.
The point I try to make is a formal one.
When you check forum rules.....these are clear.
In my opinion moderators should be more aware of (hidden) commercial interests, and the very moment that Bruno and/or Jan Peter pop into the discussion, the thread should be moved.
In this particular thread one of the posters, you all know who, seems to be very irritated, maybe even frustrated.
Why? Because of comments on his poor English? Because his technical opinions are rejected?
Some people are more talented than others to present (and defend) their ideas.
I think part of the irritation comes from the fact that the more talented guys seem to have a free stage here.
Therefore I would prefer this discussion to take place in the Commercial Sector.
There would be no Class D forum if any discussion involving a commercial product was moved as you suggest.
It is the nature of Class D amplification which often involves proprietary technology.
You and me, hiding behind our nicknames, could have commercial involvement in Hypex or Tripath (= 41Hz or some chinese vendor, since the company itself is bankrupt) or B&O ICEpower or AudioPower or NuForce etc, as far as the rest of the community is concerned. In fact, some of the most knowledgeable people around here have been involved in the development of a Class D amp, one way or another and the same goes for other sub-forums.
We are not always as lucky as with JanPeter, Bruno and Roberto (lucky = we know who we're dealing with and, since we're mostly grown ups, can filter their messages accordingly).
What do we do? Move all discussions pertaining to the aforementioned companies, just in case? It's going to be a lonely place around here and I'm sure Bruno Putzeys, Nelson Pass, John Curl etc. (the company of whom we now have the luxury to enjoy), don't like lonely places...
As long as we keep the discussion purely technical and people with actual vested interest play nice (or are made to play nice), I see nothing wrong with it.
It is the nature of Class D amplification which often involves proprietary technology.
You and me, hiding behind our nicknames, could have commercial involvement in Hypex or Tripath (= 41Hz or some chinese vendor, since the company itself is bankrupt) or B&O ICEpower or AudioPower or NuForce etc, as far as the rest of the community is concerned. In fact, some of the most knowledgeable people around here have been involved in the development of a Class D amp, one way or another and the same goes for other sub-forums.
We are not always as lucky as with JanPeter, Bruno and Roberto (lucky = we know who we're dealing with and, since we're mostly grown ups, can filter their messages accordingly).
What do we do? Move all discussions pertaining to the aforementioned companies, just in case? It's going to be a lonely place around here and I'm sure Bruno Putzeys, Nelson Pass, John Curl etc. (the company of whom we now have the luxury to enjoy), don't like lonely places...
As long as we keep the discussion purely technical and people with actual vested interest play nice (or are made to play nice), I see nothing wrong with it.
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Checking Vendors forums I see lots of technical discussions; why could not Ncore discussions take place there with the same contentional quality?
Of course Ncore can be discussed in a general Class D forum, but when the people behind Ncore take part in the discussion it is just different.
Where do have forum rules for?
Once more, it is a pure formal issue. Things might work better when discussions take place within the rules of the forum.
Actually, Bruno mentioned listening tests quite early on here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/190434-hypex-ncore-8.html#post2607666
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/190434-hypex-ncore-11.html#post2609006
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/190434-hypex-ncore-12.html#post2609857
The papers and product track record speak for themselves, moreover, so I'm inclined to believe him when he talks of, as you mention it, "leaps forward". Your mileage may vary.
I have learned to be reluctant until I have seen (heard) the real thing, reputations or not.
But we should not have to wait much longer as Ncore for DIY is announced to be released before the end of the year
Dont agree.
All I see in audio ads these days are poetic descriptions rivalling those found in ads for cosmetics, and when technical things are mentioned those are very quasi-scientifical and undocumented. Just look up any of the major audio magazines, and you'll see lots of "quantum purifiers" and other nonsense.
The situation is a bit different in the audio engineering and DIY communities, but not all that much really. I think audio should be measured a lot more than it is, development of audio products are too much based on feelings and marketing considerations, and too little on real measured performance!
Mmmm, how do you think to convince the people loving their tube amps (SE and/or PP) for example?
I think not by suggesting a lower distortion class D amplifier
There is nothing wrong with the "feeling" thing; it is the cream on the pie as we say here.
Isn't music about emotion? When the reproducing chain is able to display this emotion there is not much against it.
At the same time I am not suggesting that class D amplifiers might not be able to do this
There has been written enough on the subject of distortion and/or/vs musical perception.
we're not trying to convince them. they can like whatever form of distortion they want.
let me give you this example, quoting someone I know: take one valve SET amp and measure its performance. then take a top of the line solid state one and do the same. compare performance and then compare sound. you'll find that they sound different. do you really think it's the SET amp that is neutral and transparent? do you really think the fact that a $30000 solid state amp has performance exceeding the one of the best Audio Precision measuring tools has nothing to do with exceptional perceived sound?
measurements are all over the net, reviews too. it's just a matter of little effort to try and correlate them.
for me the case is closed. I'm convinced that a lot of people don't care about faithful reproduction. Bruno chose not to follow that trend. some chose the "real audiophiles abhor negative feedback" one.
let me give you this example, quoting someone I know: take one valve SET amp and measure its performance. then take a top of the line solid state one and do the same. compare performance and then compare sound. you'll find that they sound different. do you really think it's the SET amp that is neutral and transparent? do you really think the fact that a $30000 solid state amp has performance exceeding the one of the best Audio Precision measuring tools has nothing to do with exceptional perceived sound?
measurements are all over the net, reviews too. it's just a matter of little effort to try and correlate them.
for me the case is closed. I'm convinced that a lot of people don't care about faithful reproduction. Bruno chose not to follow that trend. some chose the "real audiophiles abhor negative feedback" one.
Well I do, and quite a few here too I suppose.
But when you suggest that "faithful reproduction" is the realm of future super low (class D) amplifiers, then we must have missed quite a lot in the past
all I meant was that there is a correlation between measured performance and sound.......
Really? Well, in my experience not always a positive one...
I feel that you have something to say but don't have the guts to. come on, spit it out.
No, nothing to add.
Oh, maybe that the seemingly difficult wait for the Ncore reminds me of customers (in my days as a hifi salesman) asking about once a week when the ........MkII would pop in hoping for even better specs (and therefore enhanced listening pleasure
Stig:
Have you ever listened to those very expensive amplifiers from Australia, the ones with the exceptional measurements (starts with an "H")?
I have, and they sound horrible. While I am not suggesting that I would prefer an amplifier with a poor set of measurements, I do believe that the traditional measurements for audio amplifiers do not tell the entire story of what a given amplifier will sound like. Please do not take my opinion the wrong way, I like an amp that both measures well and sounds good. I just feel that the traditional set of measurements applied to amplifiers, are not adequate to completely describe the performance of an audio product.
I would expect most of us have had the (listening) experience of two amplifiers which measure almost identically sounding quite different.
I do hope, that the nCore will sound as good as they measure, but until we hear them, we cannot know what they will sound like.
I also hope that some day we will have a more complete understanding of measurable parameters which govern the sound, and the tools to measure those parameters accurately.
Have you ever listened to those very expensive amplifiers from Australia, the ones with the exceptional measurements (starts with an "H")?
I have, and they sound horrible. While I am not suggesting that I would prefer an amplifier with a poor set of measurements, I do believe that the traditional measurements for audio amplifiers do not tell the entire story of what a given amplifier will sound like. Please do not take my opinion the wrong way, I like an amp that both measures well and sounds good. I just feel that the traditional set of measurements applied to amplifiers, are not adequate to completely describe the performance of an audio product.
I would expect most of us have had the (listening) experience of two amplifiers which measure almost identically sounding quite different.
I do hope, that the nCore will sound as good as they measure, but until we hear them, we cannot know what they will sound like.
I also hope that some day we will have a more complete understanding of measurable parameters which govern the sound, and the tools to measure those parameters accurately.
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