This design looks a lot better than the Sure design! Nice output filter inductors, good quality caps.
The input caps that are standard on the Sure board are a fairly nice film cap at 100nF doing just a small percentage of the job with a larger value crappy ceramic SMD cap mounted to bypass it. A very sneaky way to make something look good which in fact isn't. This board has slightly overdone it, they are my favorite quality caps, but not the right voltage and value to get top performance. Something for the designer to save on and improve at the same time...
Then I wonder how the temperature is for this board? What exact chipset is it?
The input caps that are standard on the Sure board are a fairly nice film cap at 100nF doing just a small percentage of the job with a larger value crappy ceramic SMD cap mounted to bypass it. A very sneaky way to make something look good which in fact isn't. This board has slightly overdone it, they are my favorite quality caps, but not the right voltage and value to get top performance. Something for the designer to save on and improve at the same time...
Then I wonder how the temperature is for this board? What exact chipset is it?
Hi Vbro
The driver chip is visible and is Tripath TC2000 (usually paired with TP2050 as in the sure boards)
The output chips are under the heatsink which I haven't removed but I can confirm that there are two suggesting the same bridged topology as used in the sure boards.I guess
they are probably TP2050 and the thread title is misleading.
The heatsink does indeed get warmer than ambient but is not at all hot. the output inductors similar ie.I could keep my fingers on the sink all day without discomfort.
I'll leave mine stock to get some time on it but definitely intend to bypass the onboard pot. make direct connection to the board. vias available on the board for L+R input but not signal gnd and direct connection to the power supply tank cap.
I live in a flat (apartment) so listen mostly at modest levels
I'd like to hear your input cap recommendations
cheers jon
The driver chip is visible and is Tripath TC2000 (usually paired with TP2050 as in the sure boards)
The output chips are under the heatsink which I haven't removed but I can confirm that there are two suggesting the same bridged topology as used in the sure boards.I guess
they are probably TP2050 and the thread title is misleading.
The heatsink does indeed get warmer than ambient but is not at all hot. the output inductors similar ie.I could keep my fingers on the sink all day without discomfort.
I'll leave mine stock to get some time on it but definitely intend to bypass the onboard pot. make direct connection to the board. vias available on the board for L+R input but not signal gnd and direct connection to the power supply tank cap.
I live in a flat (apartment) so listen mostly at modest levels
I'd like to hear your input cap recommendations
cheers jon
That is interesting. I didn't think that too high voltage rating made any differency to the worse. And the cap is 2.2uf isnt it? I would also appreciate any input on upgrades.
The TK2050 is a name for the tc20000 and tp2050 used together.
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/Tripath/mXyzwqtx.pdf
This is interesting, if it is not the TP2050 itself on the Sure boards that causes them to run bloody hot then it must be something else afterall!
The input caps I have discovered that don't pop at all and still sound great are the same brand as this board. Generally the lowest voltage ratings are still ridiculously overrated compared to the voltage presented to them in a line signal path. Then 2.2uF is an often used value, but my audio analizer tells me that you'd have to go down to 470nF before things become really audible. In some situations cutting subsonic frequencies is even a wanted side effect. Using 1uF I have found to be by far large enough to serve you plenty of bass depth and yet diminish the pops to virtually zero. Then the smaller size that comes with a lower voltage rating has the benefit of picking up less noise.
The input caps I have discovered that don't pop at all and still sound great are the same brand as this board. Generally the lowest voltage ratings are still ridiculously overrated compared to the voltage presented to them in a line signal path. Then 2.2uF is an often used value, but my audio analizer tells me that you'd have to go down to 470nF before things become really audible. In some situations cutting subsonic frequencies is even a wanted side effect. Using 1uF I have found to be by far large enough to serve you plenty of bass depth and yet diminish the pops to virtually zero. Then the smaller size that comes with a lower voltage rating has the benefit of picking up less noise.
Different dead time adjustments? Different output stage parts? It is a bit of a mystery isn't it!
Checked dead time, not the problem. Suspect are Config because this pin is certainly connected wrong on the Sure boards, that is confirmed. But it is alse tested (I think by Elfishi) not to make it run cooler.
Different output stage configuration rather than parts I think. There are some obvious differences in the Sure output stage which are totally ignoring the Tripath advises mentioned in the application notes....
But here we are talking Sure again, I had already left that board for pretty useless. This board looks far more promising!
Different output stage configuration rather than parts I think. There are some obvious differences in the Sure output stage which are totally ignoring the Tripath advises mentioned in the application notes....
But here we are talking Sure again, I had already left that board for pretty useless. This board looks far more promising!
Hi, I do not really see the point as this amp has speaker protection relays. So no pops at power up/down. Changing this quality caps will probably make a change a normal person can not hear.
Five minutes ago I received my board and I have to admit it really looks well engineered. Also parts are of known good quality. Just the 330 uF Elna RJH after the 7805 seems non optimal at a first glance. I hope I find the time for testing.
Interesting, this is not what I've read before. I have read for example about the satch DAC that a higher voltage rating means more isolation, which means less noise. Normally high-end caps comes in ratings from 450V - 1200V even if they are supposed used in a low voltage setting. Could you actually get better result if used a lower rating?
Any more input on this?
v-bro probably meant that a smaller cap is less prone to picking up RF etc from surrounding electronics because of its size alone. Not noise generated by the cap itself which is lower with higher voltage caps AFAIK. With switching amps this is surely something to take into account. From a technical point of view it is unwise to use for example those expensive very large Obligato caps on a switching amp as they will definitely pick up switching signals. So things will deteriorate as can be shown on a oscilloscope despite the opinion of the owner that placed them telling that it sounds better. Large components act as antennas for RF/EMI etc.
That might be true but I learnt to connect the pin that's connected with the "outer foil" to the lowest impedance point to minimize these side effects. With Wima this is the side with the black stripe.
Best practice for finding suitable input caps for class D/T amps is to search for the physical smallest cap with the best dielectric with the highest working voltage and the smallest pitch ( for the lowest possible price, we are dutch after all ). That would be a 8 mm high/wide/deep Wima MKP 2.2 uF 250V in 5 mm pitch at 1 Euro/piece for me
That might be true but I learnt to connect the pin that's connected with the "outer foil" to the lowest impedance point to minimize these side effects. With Wima this is the side with the black stripe.
Best practice for finding suitable input caps for class D/T amps is to search for the physical smallest cap with the best dielectric with the highest working voltage and the smallest pitch ( for the lowest possible price, we are dutch after all ). That would be a 8 mm high/wide/deep Wima MKP 2.2 uF 250V in 5 mm pitch at 1 Euro/piece for me
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That is so true, but at 1 euro/cap it might be that the sound out of them is not that good at all. (not saying cheap caps all sound crap, but the more expensive ones ought to sound better)
I agree on the criteria of low voltage rating and size, but sometimes one has to consider a bigger cap sounding better, even if it picks up a little RF, then so be it.
There will ofcourse be an optimum, but the optimum might be different for the ones with the scopes and the ones without, as something that looks good on the scope, might sound crap when actually playing music.
This is not a rant to all you who use scopes (as i have none)
I think it is true that one should select some smaller caps with maybe lower voltage rating, but always listen to them before recommending them (as i personally dont like the sound of wimas...)
I agree on the criteria of low voltage rating and size, but sometimes one has to consider a bigger cap sounding better, even if it picks up a little RF, then so be it.
There will ofcourse be an optimum, but the optimum might be different for the ones with the scopes and the ones without, as something that looks good on the scope, might sound crap when actually playing music.
This is not a rant to all you who use scopes
(as i have none)I think it is true that one should select some smaller caps with maybe lower voltage rating, but always listen to them before recommending them (as i personally dont like the sound of wimas...)
That is so true, but at 1 euro/cap it might be that the sound out of them is not that good at all. (not saying cheap caps all sound crap, but the more expensive ones ought to sound better)
I agree on the criteria of low voltage rating and size, but sometimes one has to consider a bigger cap sounding better, even if it picks up a little RF, then so be it.
There will ofcourse be an optimum, but the optimum might be different for the ones with the scopes and the ones without, as something that looks good on the scope, might sound crap when actually playing music.This is not a rant to all you who use scopes
I think it is true that one should select some smaller caps with maybe lower voltage rating, but always listen to them before recommending them (as i personally dont like the sound of wimas...)
I was only joking but I see that was not clear. However I wish to react to your statements:
not saying cheap caps all sound crap, but the more expensive ones ought to sound better
This is a doubtful remark as you pay for the brand name, marketing, overhead etc. as well especially when we consider so called boutique parts. Good industrial stuff that is produced in large numbers and that does not need the former named phenomenons as much can sound just as good or even better as has been proven in the years. That is hard to swallow if you just paid 30 Euro for one cap
If you would use the same analogy for cars or food ...I agree on the criteria of low voltage rating and size, but sometimes one has to consider a bigger cap sounding better, even if it picks up a little RF, then so be it.
If it picks up RF it can not simply sound better, at least it will not perform optimally. A larger cap sounds often better than a smaller one from the same series with the same dielectric but when it picks up stray RF the fact that it could sound better will be worsened by the stray RF/EMI. When one wants to use them still shielding is a must. Either do it good or don't do it at all. When switching is involved like in class D/T it is good practice to keep things as small as possible. Simply RF design criteria...
There will ofcourse be an optimum, but the optimum might be different for the ones with the scopes and the ones without, as something that looks good on the scope, might sound crap when actually playing music.
This is not a rant to all you who use scopes
(as i have none)Something that looks bad on the scope ( regarding RF/EMI ) will very likely sound bad as well. You should try to see what you are doing. This is often used by guys who try to do good but don't know what they're really doing and then justify that they only use their ears as that should be the best instrument. With the right tools and some time you can make your design better with slight effort.
I think it is true that one should select some smaller caps with maybe lower voltage rating, but always listen to them before recommending them (as i personally dont like the sound of wimas...)
Well, we can not debate about taste but to judge all products of one brand is difficult. For instance their MKS2 5 mm pitch series are ideal electrolytic cap replacements that fit well mechanically and also sound/measure better than the electrolytic caps they replaced. It all depends where you use them for.
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HI all
board dimensions (wxdxh) 128x81x38mm board thickness 1.6mm
I've made direct connection of the power supply to the tank cap pins (easy since they are untrimmed) raising the supply from 22.5V to 24V and have bypassed onboard pot with short links. 47K pot by the way.
Input cap options are provided by three sets of pads on the board giving pitches of31.24.15mm and combinations.
Overall how does it sound? absolutely fabulous in my system. Jeff Buckley's Grace totally spellbinding and I've heard expensive systems struggle with that cd.
A well thought out board and definitely quality bargain!
cheers jon
board dimensions (wxdxh) 128x81x38mm board thickness 1.6mm
I've made direct connection of the power supply to the tank cap pins (easy since they are untrimmed) raising the supply from 22.5V to 24V and have bypassed onboard pot with short links. 47K pot by the way.
Input cap options are provided by three sets of pads on the board giving pitches of31.24.15mm and combinations.
Overall how does it sound? absolutely fabulous in my system. Jeff Buckley's Grace totally spellbinding and I've heard expensive systems struggle with that cd.
A well thought out board and definitely quality bargain!
cheers jon
Also:
The latest update from hifimediy is another 4-7 days before I have more boards.
And, I have to adjust the price to 45USD incl shipping for one board. 2 or more boards will still be 42USD each. This is because another shipping fee I wasn't aware of showed up and also there was a misunderstanding between me and hifimediy making me believe the boards with package where a little lighter then they actually are. Hope this is not a to big dissapointment for anybody.
I will also shortly put them on ebay. but the prices there will be more expensive to cover the high ebay fees, probably 48usd.
The latest update from hifimediy is another 4-7 days before I have more boards.
And, I have to adjust the price to 45USD incl shipping for one board. 2 or more boards will still be 42USD each. This is because another shipping fee I wasn't aware of showed up and also there was a misunderstanding between me and hifimediy making me believe the boards with package where a little lighter then they actually are. Hope this is not a to big dissapointment for anybody.
I will also shortly put them on ebay. but the prices there will be more expensive to cover the high ebay fees, probably 48usd.
Hi all
@Nick difficult to say really but on the whole I feel the amp is now sounding more musical could just be running in or my ears acclimatising. Initially I felt the highs to be a little dry this is not the case now and I am very happy!!!
Good to see that more of these amps will be available soon we need the appraisal from those with the verbage and experience ...Tempted Scott? Have a go way better than my stock sure 4x100
cheers jon
Many THANKS Nick!
@Nick difficult to say really but on the whole I feel the amp is now sounding more musical could just be running in or my ears acclimatising. Initially I felt the highs to be a little dry this is not the case now and I am very happy!!!
Good to see that more of these amps will be available soon we need the appraisal from those with the verbage and experience ...Tempted Scott? Have a go way better than my stock sure 4x100
cheers jon
Many THANKS Nick!
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