Hello Guys,
This is my first post.
I am curious as to why the only companies manufacturing amps based on the Texas Instruments Equibit are Panasonic and TacT?
I am really intrigued by the capability to be all digital through to the last stage and wish there were more options/choices.
Do you guys have any input why there are so few people using this technology?
Thanks,
James
This is my first post.
I am curious as to why the only companies manufacturing amps based on the Texas Instruments Equibit are Panasonic and TacT?
I am really intrigued by the capability to be all digital through to the last stage and wish there were more options/choices.
Do you guys have any input why there are so few people using this technology?
Thanks,
James
Charles,
My question is derived from the numerous amount of internet searching I have done over the past year. I am not a super technical guy and would never tackle a project such as building my own amp so I need to find one in production. The reason for my curiosity is that I currently have two of the Panasonic SA XR-700 receivers that I use for my 2 channel set-up. The sound is very nice in all digital mode but I feel it may need just a bit more power.
There is the option of modifying the Panasonics but it could be as much as $1000 per unit to do this and I am not even sure it would be any better than the current Tact offering OR even have enough wattage. My speakers require Bi-amping and the lower woofers would do well with at least 175 watts and preferably more than 250 watts.
So, does anyone know of any high power versions of the Equibit OR would someone be willing to build them?
Thanks,
James
My question is derived from the numerous amount of internet searching I have done over the past year. I am not a super technical guy and would never tackle a project such as building my own amp so I need to find one in production. The reason for my curiosity is that I currently have two of the Panasonic SA XR-700 receivers that I use for my 2 channel set-up. The sound is very nice in all digital mode but I feel it may need just a bit more power.
There is the option of modifying the Panasonics but it could be as much as $1000 per unit to do this and I am not even sure it would be any better than the current Tact offering OR even have enough wattage. My speakers require Bi-amping and the lower woofers would do well with at least 175 watts and preferably more than 250 watts.
So, does anyone know of any high power versions of the Equibit OR would someone be willing to build them?
Thanks,
James
The power you are looking for can be achieved with TI's largest integrated output stage. But into 4 Ohms - not 8.
Therefore I assume that there must be finished products available in this ballpark.
It is not easy to make a discrete power stage for this topology (i.e. open loop) so I assume that there might not be too many companies being able to do it apart from TacT (Lyngdorf) and TI.
Regards
Charles
Therefore I assume that there must be finished products available in this ballpark.
It is not easy to make a discrete power stage for this topology (i.e. open loop) so I assume that there might not be too many companies being able to do it apart from TacT (Lyngdorf) and TI.
Regards
Charles
The original poster's question is a good one and the answer to which is probably that manufacturers and DIYers use whatever digital chip is flavour of the month.
Having owned Bel Canto amps (Tripath chips); ICEPOWER 250A & 500A amps and Panasonic XR30/50/57/700 amps (Equibit), I think they all sound pretty good and have great clarity and detail. They seem to differ only in how the designer has voiced them to do different things in the areas of midrange projection and how the highs and lows are presented.
The Panasonics are superb value and provide five or six channels of high quality digital amplification @ 100w/ch - great for active speaker systems. At the price secondhand $100-500, its not worth contemplating DIYing such an amp unless you are a masochist and want to do it for the 'fun' of it?
Regards,
Steve M.
Having owned Bel Canto amps (Tripath chips); ICEPOWER 250A & 500A amps and Panasonic XR30/50/57/700 amps (Equibit), I think they all sound pretty good and have great clarity and detail. They seem to differ only in how the designer has voiced them to do different things in the areas of midrange projection and how the highs and lows are presented.
The Panasonics are superb value and provide five or six channels of high quality digital amplification @ 100w/ch - great for active speaker systems. At the price secondhand $100-500, its not worth contemplating DIYing such an amp unless you are a masochist and want to do it for the 'fun' of it?
Regards,
Steve M.
maybe because the jitter requirement of 1bit conversion is on the order of 20picoseconds, for 16bit equivalent of perfomance . That speaks for itself, cause it asks for a digital front-end thats more expensive than the whole output stage : )) Also (to my understanding) this is also the only reason these modern "128x" delta sigma converter chips use multibit quantizer, eg. this lowers their sensitivity to jitter, also their builtin switched capacitor output stage does. You can t really use either with a straight 1bit converter, that is , what I personally find the preferable case too.
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The original poster's question is a good one and the answer to which is probably that manufacturers and DIYers use whatever digital chip is flavour of the month.
Having owned Bel Canto amps (Tripath chips); ICEPOWER 250A & 500A amps and Panasonic XR30/50/57/700 amps (Equibit), I think they all sound pretty good and have great clarity and detail. They seem to differ only in how the designer has voiced them to do different things in the areas of midrange projection and how the highs and lows are presented.
The Panasonics are superb value and provide five or six channels of high quality digital amplification @ 100w/ch - great for active speaker systems. At the price secondhand $100-500, its not worth contemplating DIYing such an amp unless you are a masochist and want to do it for the 'fun' of it?
Regards,
Steve M.
Steve,
Thanks for your input, do you currently have the Panasonic 700? If not why did you get rid of it? Do you think it is worth selling my set-up and going with something ice-powered such as the Wyred 4 Sound? I really do not want to go this direction if it is just an equal (sound quality) move as I would have to get a nice DAC and Pre-amp in addition to the 4 channels. Currently I only have the 2 Panny receivers being feed by my sources' digital out. The price difference would be something like 4-5k if done right!! Those selling the Ice-powered gear say it will be no contest but I believe they are just trying to push their gear. Especially since so few have heard the Equibit.
Others have told me that the Panasonics REALLY benefit from a replacement of the current "captive" power cord with an IEC type. This is a somewhat inexpensive change- probably $300-$400 (each) with mod AND high quality power cord. The cord can always remain with me if the units are sold so it is more like $100 per unit that I would be out. Wayne at Boulder Cable used to do mods on the earlier generation units (XR-57) and said it would probably be in the range a $700-$1000 to upgrade the caps and power supply. At this level things are starting to get a bit more spendy! Especially for an "unknown" return. He was not even familiar with the XR-700 and so it would just be a "guess" as to what changes would occur with more expensive parts.
So, I am in a bit of a dilemma as to the direction to go. Do I try to stay with the "all Digital" topology or go with a DAC in the system? Honestly- if I change away from the Equibit topology then things are wide open and there is really no reason to stay with class D (Tri-path, Hypex, or Ice)
I realize that I am asking for something that is mainly subjective- ALL OF THIS AUDIO STUFF IS ANYWAY! What I would really love to have is a single chassis system with 4 channels of high power Equibit and a digital source selector with volume control. Oh yeah- it must sound great!!
Thanks,
James
check this thread, this is the non plus ultra upgrade for those equibits, then use some boutique clock :
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22741&pp=25
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22741&pp=25
James,
I still have the XR-700, I love how it sounds and looks ...its relegated to Home Theatre use running some Fostex FE206E speakers, and the combination for speech and overall clarity is unbeatable, IMHO.
Whether another digital amp sounds better or not in your system is for you to determine and try out in your home. All I was trying to hint at is that IME, the Tripath/ICE/Equibit have a similar sonic signature, all sound clear and precise. The Bel Canto's with Tripath chip to me are a little smooth (slightly sucked out in the mids); the ICE modules more forward in the mid and brighter treble; the Equibit more like ICE than Tripath. The eAR amps from Denmark with ICE modules sounds great too. However, all of this is highly dependent on your system matching and how the individual amp designer has filtered and voiced his particular digiamp, not so much the type of chip used, at least that's what I'm guessing at??
IMO, there will be improvements with modifications but the essential sound of any amplifier is determined by its inherent circuit design, good or bad - not by designer parts. I wouldn't get sucked into high cost mods, but that's just me I'm getting old and cynical with hi-fi purveyors who'll say anything to flog their wares!
That said, at the end of the day I would spend my money on a good tube amp. Given a perfect speaker load nothing beats them for sound quality and making you forget about the equipment and just enjoy the music ...that's what its all about.
Regards,
Steve M.
I still have the XR-700, I love how it sounds and looks ...its relegated to Home Theatre use running some Fostex FE206E speakers, and the combination for speech and overall clarity is unbeatable, IMHO.
Whether another digital amp sounds better or not in your system is for you to determine and try out in your home. All I was trying to hint at is that IME, the Tripath/ICE/Equibit have a similar sonic signature, all sound clear and precise. The Bel Canto's with Tripath chip to me are a little smooth (slightly sucked out in the mids); the ICE modules more forward in the mid and brighter treble; the Equibit more like ICE than Tripath. The eAR amps from Denmark with ICE modules sounds great too. However, all of this is highly dependent on your system matching and how the individual amp designer has filtered and voiced his particular digiamp, not so much the type of chip used, at least that's what I'm guessing at??
IMO, there will be improvements with modifications but the essential sound of any amplifier is determined by its inherent circuit design, good or bad - not by designer parts. I wouldn't get sucked into high cost mods, but that's just me I'm getting old and cynical with hi-fi purveyors who'll say anything to flog their wares!
That said, at the end of the day I would spend my money on a good tube amp. Given a perfect speaker load nothing beats them for sound quality and making you forget about the equipment and just enjoy the music ...that's what its all about.
Regards,
Steve M.
My posts are delayed for some reason so it appears that I am out of order with you guys. How many posts do I have to have that are approved before I can directly post?
Tritosine,
Thanks for your help. I read the whole "High Resolution Multi-Channel Digital Interface" thread started by Brian Brown. Honestly it and MOST every post on this whole forum are WAY over my head. I am not an electronics DIY guy myself I am really just interested in finding a better all digital system. Your post as well may have been informative for someone in the know but alas I am mentally deficient with all the terminology and nomenclature. I wish I had the smarts to do something like this.
I do feel that the market is wanting a complete digital system (not analog like Tri-Path, Ice, Hypex) that is ultra simple yet high end. I am convinced that a high power all digital system without all the junk in the Panasonic would appeal to many people. The TacT amps don't really offer enough power to warrant the upgrade. The Equibit amp should accept multiple digital inputs/formats and have source switching with volume control. It would be great as well if the unit allowed someone to add another unit for speakers needing bi-amping but allowed it to be a "slave" of sorts. Once again- TacT does this but I feel they are overpriced for the wattage. Those amps do not seem to have changed in several years!
I did find a few more threads on here dealing with the Panasonic. They are each really long and I am sure they are filled with some good information. I am trying to work my way through them at this time.
Thanks,
James
Tritosine,
Thanks for your help. I read the whole "High Resolution Multi-Channel Digital Interface" thread started by Brian Brown. Honestly it and MOST every post on this whole forum are WAY over my head. I am not an electronics DIY guy myself I am really just interested in finding a better all digital system. Your post as well may have been informative for someone in the know but alas I am mentally deficient with all the terminology and nomenclature. I wish I had the smarts to do something like this.
I do feel that the market is wanting a complete digital system (not analog like Tri-Path, Ice, Hypex) that is ultra simple yet high end. I am convinced that a high power all digital system without all the junk in the Panasonic would appeal to many people. The TacT amps don't really offer enough power to warrant the upgrade. The Equibit amp should accept multiple digital inputs/formats and have source switching with volume control. It would be great as well if the unit allowed someone to add another unit for speakers needing bi-amping but allowed it to be a "slave" of sorts. Once again- TacT does this but I feel they are overpriced for the wattage. Those amps do not seem to have changed in several years!
I did find a few more threads on here dealing with the Panasonic. They are each really long and I am sure they are filled with some good information. I am trying to work my way through them at this time.
Thanks,
James
Its about the clock thing. The clock that feeds this amplifier is still analog, and its quality will directly interfere with the result.
Zetex went ahead and put the whole clock thing into a chip. It became a bit expensive (that zetex NAD amp is 5000usd?) . The odl fashioned way, clocks outside just wont work for the mass production guys, cause the results wont be anything stable, or consistent. I think this wont be cheap for a while.
Zetex went ahead and put the whole clock thing into a chip. It became a bit expensive (that zetex NAD amp is 5000usd?) . The odl fashioned way, clocks outside just wont work for the mass production guys, cause the results wont be anything stable, or consistent. I think this wont be cheap for a while.
I had not heard of the Zetex company before and I want to take some time to research this. Not sure how it differs from the Pure-Path/Equibit from TI?
I was able to find this: http://koonlab.com/TAS4i.html which is from a DIY Audio member KOON3876. I am not sure if he is still around and/or still experimenting with these Pure-Path chips but it looks very interesting.
Thanks for the help,
James
I was able to find this: http://koonlab.com/TAS4i.html which is from a DIY Audio member KOON3876. I am not sure if he is still around and/or still experimenting with these Pure-Path chips but it looks very interesting.
Thanks for the help,
James
http://www.diodes.com/zetex/_pdfs/literature/pdf/SCCLZBR2.pdf
I would be suprised if Koon's design has SNR over 100, that isnt enough, even properly dithered CD-s are much better than that.
Besides, he is member here, and you can notice his quest for "the perfect source" , because there is not much you can do with spdif .One solution is Brian's thread.
I would be suprised if Koon's design has SNR over 100, that isnt enough, even properly dithered CD-s are much better than that.
Besides, he is member here, and you can notice his quest for "the perfect source" , because there is not much you can do with spdif .One solution is Brian's thread.
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I have been reading up on the NAD M2 and it is looking pretty sweet. It is pretty expensive though- especially for an NAD product.
Technology Preview: NAD M2 Direct Digital Amplifier—Is This the Future of Audio Amplification? | AVguide
NAD M2 Direct Digital Amplifier—A New Take on Class-D | AVguide
NAD M2: A digital amplifier an audiophile could love | The Audiophiliac - CNET News
Seems like Robert Harley is pretty keen on this technology. It is about time that the All Digital systems get some respect.
James
Technology Preview: NAD M2 Direct Digital Amplifier—Is This the Future of Audio Amplification? | AVguide
NAD M2 Direct Digital Amplifier—A New Take on Class-D | AVguide
NAD M2: A digital amplifier an audiophile could love | The Audiophiliac - CNET News
Seems like Robert Harley is pretty keen on this technology. It is about time that the All Digital systems get some respect.
James
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