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Class D Switching Power Amplifiers and Power D/A conversion

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Old 17th March 2010, 11:24 AM   #1141
wwenze is offline wwenze  Singapore
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Originally Posted by Barbieboy View Post
What you're looking at is a 700g beast capable of dissipating 100W when fanned.

The amp produces like, 5-10W?
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Old 17th March 2010, 11:54 AM   #1142
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Hi V-bro Yes i recall a mention if the fan somewhere in the posts. One thing I found from working with lots of gainclones, the more refined the design/results get the more annoying the little issue become.

I am planning to still run the fan on low volts but off a separate battery, this isn't an issue as I have to run 4 fans plus i can use that battery for solenoid switchings and other little non audio path matters.

In the past I have found with gainclones very carefully worked out shielding of components helps, I suspect it may be even more of an issue with D amps, I know that I found moving my hands around the amp board and other hooked in circuits and wiring without anything playing one can hear variations in residual noise levels with the gain turned up.

My feeling with amps is that the final sound is as much about minimising a whole raft of really small issues as much as it is about the type of amp or chip used etc.

For example the by far the best sounding gainclones I have built are very small with ultra short circuit paths, meticulous star pointing and shielding, the choice of actual parts was far less important in the end than the construction method. A pic is attached of the micro clone built around an LM1875 chip runs on 12 or 24V dual rail and has 3200uf caps just off the board not shown the whole thing fits in a copper coffin just a little bigger than the circuit itself. It runs dead cool even on 24v despite running a gain of only 16. These modules are actually my benchmark, up until this 2050 amp nothing has come close for detail, resolution and soundstage, they basically sound like really nice tube amps but it is all changing now!

There are probably a myriad of small issues with these boards and I am still trying to come to grips with them but I learn every day.

Last edited by Zero One; 17th March 2010 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 17th March 2010, 12:04 PM   #1143
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Sorry pic seemed to go missing here tis the micro clone
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Old 17th March 2010, 12:08 PM   #1144
v-bro is offline v-bro  Netherlands
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Originally Posted by Barbieboy View Post
It is quite surprising that it needs so much heatsinking. I wouldn't be surprised if the operating temperature can be dramatically lowered with better output filter inductors. I do know for a fact from tests I have done that other inductors have a dramatical effect on the idle current consumption. Put the two together and we may have something?

I have ran all my AMP4 and AMP11 modules from 41hz during power up tests for a few minutes with no heatsinking at all! This is at 24Vdc, 8 ohm dummyload...

A larger heatsink would be no problem if only the power stage was placed on the bottom of the PCB, now you have to find something that fits in between all the higher profile components...

I know some other modules with this very same problem...Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 17th March 2010, 12:16 PM   #1145
sendler is offline sendler  United States
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Default Different coils make chips cooler?

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Originally Posted by v-bro View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if the operating temperature can be dramatically lowered with better output filter inductors. I do know for a fact from tests I have done that other inductors have a dramatical effect on the idle current consumption. Put the two together and we may have something?
How does changing the coils make the output chips run cooler and reduce current consumption at idle?
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Old 17th March 2010, 12:39 PM   #1146
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Hey V bro.. now this inductor thing is interesting, on a mildy related issue I found that the sound of the amp was substantially different when I changed the speaker cables out from straight figure 8 thin cable to cat 5 twisted cables (3 cat 5 cables per length). I noticed the resolution was better by a fair margin and the chip seems to run pretty much without any heat at all, certainly I can't feel any heat at the heatsink.

It had some heat with the small figure 8s and I thought the change was just due to burn in but maybe not.

No other amp I have ever used has seemed quite so responsive to a cable change of this type. mmmmm, got me thinking now.

I also wonder how the heat varies with speaker impedance?

I imagine a hot amp is not a happy amp!
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Old 17th March 2010, 01:05 PM   #1147
sendler is offline sendler  United States
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Originally Posted by Zero One View Post
I imagine a hot amp is not a happy amp!
Many of the early fanless amps burned up due to the small heatsink and thick glue that mounted them on the first version boards. That's why Sure went to the fan. I wouldn't run without a heat sink.
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Old 17th March 2010, 01:16 PM   #1148
dr_vega is offline dr_vega  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero One View Post
Hey V bro.. now this inductor thing is interesting, on a mildy related issue I found that the sound of the amp was substantially different when I changed the speaker cables out from straight figure 8 thin cable to cat 5 twisted cables (3 cat 5 cables per length). I noticed the resolution was better by a fair margin and the chip seems to run pretty much without any heat at all, certainly I can't feel any heat at the heatsink.

It had some heat with the small figure 8s and I thought the change was just due to burn in but maybe not.

No other amp I have ever used has seemed quite so responsive to a cable change of this type. mmmmm, got me thinking now.

I also wonder how the heat varies with speaker impedance?

I imagine a hot amp is not a happy amp!
I find the Sure responsive to all the system changes I've tried. I think of it this way: The Sure has so little coloration of its own to mask the sound of the other components. This makes changes to the other components more audible.

This makes the Sure an ideal test amp for designing speakers, comparing DACs, interconnects, power supplies, sources, etc.

Of course there are other superb amps out there, but it is hard to find one as clean as the Sure with as much power for less than $100, including power supply and mods.

-dr_vega
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Old 17th March 2010, 01:21 PM   #1149
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Holy cow, mounted on with glue! No wonder they cooked, a perfect insulator I imagine.

Sendler I think it may have been you, correct me if I am wrong but somewhere I read about changing the caps on the 5v regulator and it turned out that tant caps worked better? I am going to cut the wires to the fan tomorrow and will make a few mods in that area while at it, power supply routing etc, if it was you are you still running those caps?
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Old 17th March 2010, 01:37 PM   #1150
dr_vega is offline dr_vega  United States
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Originally Posted by Zero One View Post
Holy cow, mounted on with glue! No wonder they cooked, a perfect insulator I imagine.

Sendler I think it may have been you, correct me if I am wrong but somewhere I read about changing the caps on the 5v regulator and it turned out that tant caps worked better? I am going to cut the wires to the fan tomorrow and will make a few mods in that area while at it, power supply routing etc, if it was you are you still running those caps?
It is thermal conductive glue. Without a fan, my heat sink got quite warm to the touch. That would indicate the heat was making it from the chip to the heat sink ok. The heat sink just isn't large enough to dissipate the heat at higher volume levels. A larger heat sink or a fan solved the heat problem for us.

I think you guys are aiming higher than I am, which is great. For my purposes, improved input caps and output coils along with a bit more tank capacitance next to the chips gives me a performance level that is very satisfying. And the tiny fans I added give me reliability without any audible degradation (at least not audible to me).

Now I using the Sures as the test amps to work on improving my speakers and preamps.

-dr_vega
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