Re: Power Cap mod
An ideal power supply would deliver unlimited clean current instaneously at the rated voltage. Of course no such power supply exists.
We usually run a power supply that is not large enough to supply all the current the amp needs to run constantly at full power. But that's okay because audio signal are variable and don't require constant full power.
My Sure draws about 4.4 amps at full power. My power supply delivers 2.94 amps. So the Sure board has six large caps to store some extra energy and deliver it when the chips need more amps than the power supply can deliver. We call these storage caps or tank caps.
The bigger the caps, the longer they can provide the extra power (we're talking miliseconds, here). If your power supply is underrated and you play your music loud, espcially if you listen to organ music with deep pedal tones, you can certainly use some extra stored power.
But the caps do something else besides store extra power. When the chip wants current, it wants it right now!. It takes time for the current to run down the power cable, go through the diodes and run around the traces on the board before it reaches the chip.
By putting the caps close to the chip (as Sure has done), the current can reach the chip faster. This gives you crisper attacks on percussive and other sharp sounds.
As you might expect, not all caps are created equal. And the properties you want in tank caps are not the same as what you want in signal caps. You want tank caps that are basically big and fast. Fast caps help with detail in the music and also filter power supply noise better.
Favored brands/models are Panasonic FM or FC, Elna Silmic, and Blackgates. Given that you need at least 50v caps, the Elnas are out (they only go to 35v). People love Blackgates, but I've never used them, they're too expensive for my taste.
That leaves the wonderful Panasonics. The FMs are newer, better, and cheaper, but come in limited sizes. The FCs are the old standbys. They're great, cheap, and come in any size you want. Digikey carries Panasonic and Elna.
So, adding a big storage cap at the power supply connection is easy and will help give your bass more foundation, depth, and power. But it won't speed thing up much, even if you use a fast cap, because it is on the wrong side of the diodes and a long way from the chip.
I'm going to try adding a couple of Panasonic FM 680uF 50v caps on the back side of the board, right under the TP2050 chips.
Don't forget that also adding some fast extra capacitance on the 5v lines will help both the TC2000 and TA2050 chips. I haven't looked to see where to do that, yet.
So, if you do this, how much difference will you hear? I expect it will be subtle, but real. Sure has already done real well, giving us more storage capacity than the Tripath evaluation board has. They also used multiple smaller caps which are faster than one big one, and they placed them well on the board, close to the chips and gave us an extra 6.8uF right at each of the chip pins.
But who cares if we make the sound better. We don't really do these upgrades to improve the sound, do we, we do them because we can!
One last caveat before you add 500,000F to your board. When you first turn on your board, the power supply sees the storage caps as basically a dead short. If the power supply has to fill huge amounts of storage, it will complain, maybe even die. If you want to add massive amounts of storage, you should implement a soft start circuit to protect your power supply.
-dr_vega
swkbkk said:
An ideal power supply would deliver unlimited clean current instaneously at the rated voltage. Of course no such power supply exists.
We usually run a power supply that is not large enough to supply all the current the amp needs to run constantly at full power. But that's okay because audio signal are variable and don't require constant full power.
My Sure draws about 4.4 amps at full power. My power supply delivers 2.94 amps. So the Sure board has six large caps to store some extra energy and deliver it when the chips need more amps than the power supply can deliver. We call these storage caps or tank caps.
The bigger the caps, the longer they can provide the extra power (we're talking miliseconds, here). If your power supply is underrated and you play your music loud, espcially if you listen to organ music with deep pedal tones, you can certainly use some extra stored power.
But the caps do something else besides store extra power. When the chip wants current, it wants it right now!. It takes time for the current to run down the power cable, go through the diodes and run around the traces on the board before it reaches the chip.
By putting the caps close to the chip (as Sure has done), the current can reach the chip faster. This gives you crisper attacks on percussive and other sharp sounds.
As you might expect, not all caps are created equal. And the properties you want in tank caps are not the same as what you want in signal caps. You want tank caps that are basically big and fast. Fast caps help with detail in the music and also filter power supply noise better.
Favored brands/models are Panasonic FM or FC, Elna Silmic, and Blackgates. Given that you need at least 50v caps, the Elnas are out (they only go to 35v). People love Blackgates, but I've never used them, they're too expensive for my taste.
That leaves the wonderful Panasonics. The FMs are newer, better, and cheaper, but come in limited sizes. The FCs are the old standbys. They're great, cheap, and come in any size you want. Digikey carries Panasonic and Elna.
So, adding a big storage cap at the power supply connection is easy and will help give your bass more foundation, depth, and power. But it won't speed thing up much, even if you use a fast cap, because it is on the wrong side of the diodes and a long way from the chip.
I'm going to try adding a couple of Panasonic FM 680uF 50v caps on the back side of the board, right under the TP2050 chips.
Don't forget that also adding some fast extra capacitance on the 5v lines will help both the TC2000 and TA2050 chips. I haven't looked to see where to do that, yet.
So, if you do this, how much difference will you hear? I expect it will be subtle, but real. Sure has already done real well, giving us more storage capacity than the Tripath evaluation board has. They also used multiple smaller caps which are faster than one big one, and they placed them well on the board, close to the chips and gave us an extra 6.8uF right at each of the chip pins.
But who cares if we make the sound better. We don't really do these upgrades to improve the sound, do we, we do them because we can!
One last caveat before you add 500,000F to your board. When you first turn on your board, the power supply sees the storage caps as basically a dead short. If the power supply has to fill huge amounts of storage, it will complain, maybe even die. If you want to add massive amounts of storage, you should implement a soft start circuit to protect your power supply.
-dr_vega
Hi,
I was hoping that someone had some more info on the TC2000 than the data sheet provides. The thing is that something on my 2*100W amp fried and let the smoke out
but i cant determine what since it was enclosed and upon inspection (heatsink not removed) everything looks fine. The reason for frying (i think) is that i shorted the negatives from the outputs by mistake . All i get now is a high HMUTE on the TC2000 (blue led on the amp, the datasheet says "a fault") and a constant tone on both channels, nothing else. Since its on both channels it leads me to believe that the TP2050:s are intact, but im just guessing there.
So is there any hope for me fixing this little amp or is it just doorstop material by now? Any insight or speculation would be greatly appreciated!
I was hoping that someone had some more info on the TC2000 than the data sheet provides. The thing is that something on my 2*100W amp fried and let the smoke out
but i cant determine what since it was enclosed and upon inspection (heatsink not removed) everything looks fine. The reason for frying (i think) is that i shorted the negatives from the outputs by mistake . All i get now is a high HMUTE on the TC2000 (blue led on the amp, the datasheet says "a fault") and a constant tone on both channels, nothing else. Since its on both channels it leads me to believe that the TP2050:s are intact, but im just guessing there. So is there any hope for me fixing this little amp or is it just doorstop material by now? Any insight or speculation would be greatly appreciated!
ttan98 said:
I started my power cap rant with "An ideal power supply would deliver unlimited clean current instaneously at the rated voltage. Of course no such power supply exists."
Actually, sealed lead acid (SLA) batteries come close. They can deliver huge amounts of current very fast and effectively have no noise at all.
I believe Vinnie's Red Wine Signature amps are Tripath TK2050s on battery power. A lot of people run the TA2024s and TA2020s on battery power and claim excellent results.
What size batteries are you using ttan98 (how many amp/hours)?
-dr_vega
swkbkk said:
I wouldn't call it expertise. I'm not an electrical engineer or any kind of a ained anything (well, I'm a trained actor, for what that's worth). I'm just passing along things I learned from other folks on this and other boards. If anyone has corrections, additions, or counter-viewpoints, please post them. That's how we learn.
-cc
sayang001 said:
Lift the heatsink, mine looked ok as well until I lifted the heatsink and found that pins on the TP2050 were gone.
Also I recommend to put 3A fuse in the powerline.
I noticed you used the Pentium 4 heat sink, you have to cut it to half to fit on this board?
Somehow, i beginning to feel could be that the original heatsink is not really resting well on the chip.
I was considering cutting and using the pentium 4 heatsink like you since i have almost 5 extra pentium 4 heat sink around.
OR
Do a good lapping of the original heat, apply Artic Silver compound.
I have a sealed bearing thermal controlled 60mm low profile fan that can be mounted too. only problem is i would need another voltage regulator to put it down to 12v.
Just an update, I previously changed C4 to a 100uF FM. This has now been changed to a 10uF Tantalum. I think it has made the bass more snappy and removed a bit of treble distortion?
I am a bit fussy about the 5v supply and IMHO wouldn't add a fan to it (noise on line, strain on reg?). I would add a separate 5v supply (reg), I have even removed the green Led from my 5v supply.
I am a bit fussy about the 5v supply and IMHO wouldn't add a fan to it (noise on line, strain on reg?). I would add a separate 5v supply (reg), I have even removed the green Led from my 5v supply.
Attachments
audio1st said:
Valid point. I checked my 5v regulator and it is not heating up excessively. The fan draws about .1 amp. I had considered getting a bigger, better 5v regulator, but shelved the idea for the present. Adding a second 5v regulator instead might be a better idea. Thanks, audio1st.
There's no limit to the levels of perfection we can seek. The 5v supply is critical to the TK2050, it runs the TC2000 chip and half the TP2050 chip. Keeping it clean and improving it are undoubtedly good things.
Still, I can't hear any audible degradation in my sound by running the fan off the stock 5v supply, so I'll keep it for the time being.
I also have a 48v fan that I tried on my 34v power, but it ran too fast and made too much wind noise. I may put a pot on it and try to dial in a good speed.
-dr_vega
Many people, especially in the valve/tube world, try to steer away from electrolytics in the power supply due to harsh treble and lack of speed. Plastic films are very popular now. Has anyone here tried plastic film (polypropylene) caps instead of electrolytics in the power supply of their Tripath board? Obligatto make some nice polypropylene in oil caps for such a job, although they are higher voltage and lower uf than the electrolytics generally used for these types of amp.
Maybe a bank of paralleled Tantalums (to get the uf up and esr down(?)) bypassed with a plastic film cap might be an interesting exercise to try.
Another cap to try would be the Elna Silmic II series of electrolytics. They use silk fibres in the electrolytic paper and, according to Nelson Pass, are one of the great audiophile bargains of the Modern World. See link below:
http://www.elna.co.jp/en/capacitor/onkyou/silmic.html
Simon
Maybe a bank of paralleled Tantalums (to get the uf up and esr down(?)) bypassed with a plastic film cap might be an interesting exercise to try.
Another cap to try would be the Elna Silmic II series of electrolytics. They use silk fibres in the electrolytic paper and, according to Nelson Pass, are one of the great audiophile bargains of the Modern World. See link below:
http://www.elna.co.jp/en/capacitor/onkyou/silmic.html
Simon
dr_vega said:
I am like you and read lots of info on the internet, it can be conflicting sometimes.
Anyway, I found the link below which if I made any sense of it said that using a low esr cap on the output of the reg was a step in the wrong direction. Panasonic FM quickly removed..
Now it sounds better with the Tantalum to me, but may have been even better with the original
http://www.acoustica.org.uk/t/3pin_reg_notes3.html
gapmedia said:
Getting thousands of uF in film or foil capacitors is hard. It takes a lot of room and a lot of money. In the world I live in, it's not feasible, electrolytics are an evil necessity. I generally use Elna Silmics and I like them a lot, although Digikey only has them up to 35v. I also like Panasonic FM and FC, which I'll use on the TK2050 because I need 50v.
I've never tried bypassing electrolytics with film or PIO, but I might try it with the TK2050. I'm liking the Dayton foil caps so much as signal caps, I might try bypassing some storage caps with them.
My first upgrade signal caps on my first T-amp were Obligattos. I hated them. They sounded harsh to me even after 200 hours of break in. I felt the same about Solen Fast Caps. I liked the Dayton films better, but eventually went to paper in oil. So you can see that I like a more liquid sound, but still with plenty of detail.
-dr_vega
audio1st said:
I am like you and read lots of info on the internet, it can be conflicting sometimes.
Anyway, I found the link below which if I made any sense of it said that using a low esr cap on the output of the reg was a step in the wrong direction. Panasonic FM quickly removed..
Now it sounds better with the Tantalum to me, but may have been even better with the original
http://www.acoustica.org.uk/t/3pin_reg_notes3.html
Very interesting. I think I understand most of it.
I still think it's a good thing to have a large fast reservoir of power near the chip. I wonder what adding a Panny FM between C4 and the chip would do.
Or perhaps putting a 1 ohm resistor between the regulator and an FM. That should give the regulator the impedance it wants and still have a fast path to the chip.
-dr_vega
sayang001 said:
Lift the heatsink, mine looked ok as well until I lifted the heatsink and found that pins on the TP2050 were gone.
Also I recommend to put 3A fuse in the powerline.
I did some hairdrying to lift the heatsingk - and voilà - legs are in fact missing on the left TP2050. Doesnt look as burnt as on your image but the same legs are affected - mines missing pin 7 and 12. So maybe i didnt do anything wrong then, i just assumed that it must be my fault and shorting outputs was the only thing that physically could have happened, everything was enclosed (and well vented). Running from 2 x 12V SLA:s and an iphone as source
So were they hard to deal with? Regarding a replacement
hey everyone. i was just given a heads up on these amps as i used to have a sonic impact bike system and now that the amp has fried and the speaker posts are destroyed, i was looking for something with a bit more power for v 2.0.
i'm not looking to run these units at full power, maybe just 50w. i'll also be using 92dB efficient 6 1/2" two ways vs 86dB 5 1/4"s so i'm sure i'll easily play louder than the sonic impact.
i'm not a circuit builder, so i have 2 questions.
1. are the sure amps prebuilt? it sounds like they are from everyone's descriptions of just "plugging them in for testing" and by the pics at the website.
&
2. what are your opinions about running the amps with 24v worth of li-on batteries or even 30v? like i said, i'm not looking for 100w, just something with a bit more bass capability than a 15w sonic impact for no more than 4 hours of run time.
in trying to decipher all of the technospeak here, i picked up that batteries can introduce noise (i would have thought they're BETTER than transformers as in A/B) and that people should use some sort of "buffer" to isolate the batteries.
the reason i'm considering the sure is i don't want to buy a 41Hz kit. i'm looking for something i can just wire up for my bicycle system.
BTW... motorcycles are NOT bikes... they're motorcycles! LOL
any help anyone could offer for my next bike system is appreciated.
i like the symmetrical look of the sure units a lot as i wanted to mount them under plexiglass and now that i've read about heat issues, am imagining using a red LED fan to cool the amp and as my taillight. is this a doable project?
thank goodness i remembered to copy and paste this as usual, DIY keeps logging me off before i can ever make a reply
i'm not looking to run these units at full power, maybe just 50w. i'll also be using 92dB efficient 6 1/2" two ways vs 86dB 5 1/4"s so i'm sure i'll easily play louder than the sonic impact.
i'm not a circuit builder, so i have 2 questions.
1. are the sure amps prebuilt? it sounds like they are from everyone's descriptions of just "plugging them in for testing" and by the pics at the website.
&
2. what are your opinions about running the amps with 24v worth of li-on batteries or even 30v? like i said, i'm not looking for 100w, just something with a bit more bass capability than a 15w sonic impact for no more than 4 hours of run time.
in trying to decipher all of the technospeak here, i picked up that batteries can introduce noise (i would have thought they're BETTER than transformers as in A/B) and that people should use some sort of "buffer" to isolate the batteries.
the reason i'm considering the sure is i don't want to buy a 41Hz kit. i'm looking for something i can just wire up for my bicycle system.
BTW... motorcycles are NOT bikes... they're motorcycles! LOL
any help anyone could offer for my next bike system is appreciated.
i like the symmetrical look of the sure units a lot as i wanted to mount them under plexiglass and now that i've read about heat issues, am imagining using a red LED fan to cool the amp and as my taillight. is this a doable project?
thank goodness i remembered to copy and paste this as usual, DIY keeps logging me off before i can ever make a reply
budget minded said:
The units are completely pre-built and sound great right out of the box. The only "construction" is mounting the speaker binding posts if you want to use them instead of the screw connectors. It even comes with all the cables you need.
24 or 30 volt batteries will work fine. I don't know about any noise or a buffer with batteries. Were they talking about using them in a car? I can see someone wanting to filter a car's alternator noise, but batteries are about as silent as you can get.
Where in Oregon are you? I'm in the Ashland-Medford area.
-dr_vega
i'm in eugene and plan on using the amps for a bike system. for some reason, every time i say bike no matter what i'm talking about, everyone always asks "motorcycle?"
i'm giving serious consideration to the sures then. i love the look of the black SYMMETRICAL motherboard with blue capacitors (?) as i plan on mounting it under plexiglass with LED or cold cathode lighting. i might go the UV route too as i was looking into LED PC fans for a tail light, but translucent hot pink sounds better and would look cool on the black & blue amp.
i'd rather use the screw connectors as the wires will be going straight to to speakers and the banana plugs would get in the way of the 80mm exhaust fan i'm planning on. from what i understand, i could wire it directly into the amp's 5v mute terminals without needing another set of batteries just for the fan. is that correct? i'd rather undervolt a fan for quieter operation anyways.
i'd like to run it with 24v of li-on batteries as that would mean i could use 4 x 3v per side underneath lightweight 92dB pyle outdoor speakers. i'm thinking of putting the batteries under plexi too and probably adding some blue EL wire stripes between the speakers and batteries.
if you're interested, i still have pics of my 1st bike system as well as the unfinished 500w trailer i can't use because i can't get it out my door at my bike system website
http://takatomon2000.googlepages.com/my_street_party_bike
i'd rather use the trailer, but living in oregon, you know EVERYTHING closes at sundown! just try and find a storage unit you can pull your trailer out of at 11 pm!
i'm giving serious consideration to the sures then. i love the look of the black SYMMETRICAL motherboard with blue capacitors (?) as i plan on mounting it under plexiglass with LED or cold cathode lighting. i might go the UV route too as i was looking into LED PC fans for a tail light, but translucent hot pink sounds better and would look cool on the black & blue amp.
i'd rather use the screw connectors as the wires will be going straight to to speakers and the banana plugs would get in the way of the 80mm exhaust fan i'm planning on. from what i understand, i could wire it directly into the amp's 5v mute terminals without needing another set of batteries just for the fan. is that correct? i'd rather undervolt a fan for quieter operation anyways.
i'd like to run it with 24v of li-on batteries as that would mean i could use 4 x 3v per side underneath lightweight 92dB pyle outdoor speakers. i'm thinking of putting the batteries under plexi too and probably adding some blue EL wire stripes between the speakers and batteries.
if you're interested, i still have pics of my 1st bike system as well as the unfinished 500w trailer i can't use because i can't get it out my door at my bike system website
http://takatomon2000.googlepages.com/my_street_party_bike
i'd rather use the trailer, but living in oregon, you know EVERYTHING closes at sundown! just try and find a storage unit you can pull your trailer out of at 11 pm!
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