Sure Electronics New Tripath Board tc2000+tp2050

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One of my friends was unlucky because she's board turned to be a fire machine. Before connecting the speakers I always like to do some basic tests and so I connected 8 ohms 2 watt resistors to the board outputs and at the power on the board instantly set the resistors on fire. Now imagine if we had jumped the test and connected the speakers ( infinity p362 ) to the board.
Anyone has an idea of what kind of fault can cause that kind of disaster ? feedback caps and resistors maybe ?

[]'s
What do you expect when you connect a resistor rated for 2watts, to an output of a 100 watt amplifier? thats 50 times more than the resistor can handle;)
 
Okay I tested the mod done by elfish here so by connecting a 0.33uf mkt cap to ground and earth of my meanwell s350-24 I maded my 4x100 noiseless and my friends 2x100 reduced 70% of the noise .


After my good experience with the sure 4x100 wich I was able to do insane mods, two friends of mine purchased the 2x100 version. I still have one 4x100 unmodded so I was able to compare both and it ends that the STOCK 4x100 sounds much better than the STOCK 2x100 and the 4x100 outputs much less noise.

One of my friends was unlucky because she's board turned to be a fire machine. Before connecting the speakers I always like to do some basic tests and so I connected 8 ohms 2 watt resistors to the board outputs and at the power on the board instantly set the resistors on fire. Now imagine if we had jumped the test and connected the speakers ( infinity p362 ) to the board.
Anyone has an idea of what kind of fault can cause that kind of disaster ? feedback caps and resistors maybe ?

[]'s


I had similar problem with 2 boards 2x100w :(
 
I have some spare time while I wait for the new sure board to replace the one I scorched. So I completed the list of mods and things around the board I did. Maybe you find that interesting.

PSU Mean Well 24/145:
- cranked up to almost 30V
- 0.47uF MKS btn GND and COM

Sure board:
- changed PCB traces per audio1st suggestions (diyAudio - View Single Post - Sure Electronics New Tripath Board tc2000+tp2050)
- removed D1,2
- added 0.1uF parallel to C6 from the underside of the board
- exchanged C22&27 for 470pF as per the TC2000 data sheet
- re-wired pins 24 on both TP2050s to 21,22 (Vdd) instead of gnd
- removed tank caps from rails and replaced with 2 x 2 Panasonic FM 1800uF/35V on the rails
- replaced C3 with same type Pana FC
- added 0.1uF/100V MKP4 parallel to C3
- replaced C4 with standard-middle-of-the-road cap 100uF/10V
- replaced R2 with 2 green low-current LEDs, V_F=2.0V
- replaced R3 with 470Ohm
- added diodes 1n4001 btn Vadj/Vout and Vin/Vout
- replaced output filter
  • 12uH self-wound toroids: T68-2 with 46 windings of 0.6mm enameled wire, sets of 2 plain windings followed by 1 clove hitch to double up the wire layer on the inner perimeter of the toroid
  • .47 uF/250V MKP4 as common mode capacitors
  • .22uF/630V MKP4 (had those in the box) as differential mode capacitor
  • .22uF/250V MKP4 as Zobel capacitor
  • 10 Ohm/1W Metal Oxide as Zobel resistor
- replaced R16,30 with 22kOhm metal film
- interrupted traces btn input RCA and screw terminal
- removed R11,27 and replaced with 22kOhm metal film connected btn old solder pad and screw terminal
- removed R4 to open loop over SignalGND, Earth and B1
- added modified Pass B1 buffer (http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/B1 Buffer Preamp.pdf, diyAudio - View Single Post - B1 Buffer Preamp) to input
- 1nF/1000V MKP4 from speaker terminals to chassis

B1 specs
- R1 2.4 Ohm
- C1,2 2 x 3 x 3800uF/35V Panasonic FC
- C3 1uF MKP-10
- Cx00: 1uF MKP-10
- Cx01: 2.2uF MKP-10, directly linked to input resistor of sure board
- Rx05,x05: dropped
- 50k Vishay conductive plastic, log taper
- added 1N5401 to input of positive rail, bypassed by a 1k resistor for a controlled discharge of the caps (otherwise the sure amp makes an ugly noise when going down)

Soft Start/ Mute On Off Circuit
- 24V/0.4W relay 8A 2CO contacts (tyco RT424024)
- 2 white LEDs (~6V drop) in line with coil
- 47 Ohm/ 5W resistor to fill the tank caps up to operating voltage for the relay
- 1N4148 parallel to relay coil
- 0.39 Ohm/5W resistor to filter the power supply and to sense the current
- TL081 as comparator (TL081 can work in high-side applications)
- 2 x 10k voltage divider to drive a
- BS170 that mutes the amp when power is switched off and the tank caps unload via the SMPS and the current sensing resistor
- 100uF btn MUTE and GND to keep the amp mute a little longer
- 3 x 3300uF/35V Yageo SY tank caps
- 1800uF/35V Panasonic FM next to output (close to amp power input)

piccie of the board w/ toroids and schematic of the "mute on off" circuit attached
Wow that is a lot of work. I wish there were more detailed pics and explanations as I would like to do some of these mods. I see the rca connectors are untouched. Are you still using those after all these other mods? or do you go direct to the screw terminal connectors?
 
Sure refused to refund or replace my friend's damaged board. No explanation's.
They asked for a picture of the board, she sen't and they never replied .
She openned an ebay dispute and lost it. Plain simple.
Great value indeed, if it is not faulty.

Since I don't wat to try my luck I shall not recommend it to my friends and I will stay away from their low Quality Control and prototype boards for now.

[]'s
 
Sure refused to refund or replace my friend's damaged board. No explanation's.
They asked for a picture of the board, she sen't and they never replied .
She openned an ebay dispute and lost it. Plain simple.
Great value indeed, if it is not faulty.

Since I don't wat to try my luck I shall not recommend it to my friends and I will stay away from their low Quality Control and prototype boards for now.

[]'s

Unfortunately, my first board broke (version1), and after contacting Sure, I got replacement.
The second board (v2) went literally up the smoke :(

I decided not to contact again.

I was quite happy with the sound especially with the first one.
 
i bought 2 boards (biamping) have worked just fine over a month with 33.5V! heat sink is half of an old Pentium4's gives 38 Celsius degrees.
sounded just marvelous but after changing the output filters to 4,7mH 0.47uF it got a touch of brightness! i guess i'll put back tht original caps! but a little afraid of damaging the boards!
 
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I have three boards. Only one is still fine.

Two are modded, worked fine (bi-amping) and a spare one I just bought.
That last one was tested and almost burnt my brand new Fostex speakers. 20V DC offset!!
Speakers were tested and are fine, a TA2020 and a SS amp, all fine.
Then used my pair of modded Sure's TK2050 back. One vanished in smoke suddenly.
We've asked for a replacement one for the 20V DC one, hope to get it work. Or I'll build a stereo amp, still very good sounding, until failure... or not...

A pair of HiFiMeDiy T1 STA510 are on the way, I wish they were on market before the Sure...
Avoid these amps, for quality issues, even if I wonder if the top modded -then more expensive- Sure compares to a HiFiMeDiy...
 
I am waiting on a Hifimediy T2, should be here any day. I'm really looking forward to comparing it to my Sure 4x TK2050.
One mod I am looking forward to trying is replacing the output filter with one designed to match my speakers. All class-d amps that use an LC filter and zobel must be designed for a specific speaker impedance. If your speaker has a higher impedance than the one the filter was designed for, there will be a big peak in the response that will extend low enough to effect the sound of the amp. If your speaker has a lower impedance, the high end will roll off. The same goes for a mismatched zobel. I believe this is why the Sure 4x board sound so bright to most DIYers because their filter was designed for a very low impedance so nearly all speakers will have a high freq peak with the Sure.
You can design and apply your own filter that is matched to your speakers by getting the DC resistance and inductance of your high freq driver from the manufacturer (if your speaker is diy), or measuring it, then calculating the values of the output filter and zobel yourself.
I have recently written a thread on Diyaudio giving the equations, named "Class-D Output Filters - A Case Study".
I need someone to check my work before anyone commits to trying it out though.
 
Hi Malefoda, I got the T2 on Friday but my wife, Carol, and I were in the middle of preparing for an East Indian Feast. The feast will end up with over 20 dishes (my wife is compulsive when it comes to food) and we have done this on and off for almost 25 years. The feast was yesterday and today I am sharing a relaxed day helping Carol come down before going back to work tomorrow. It's not a responsibility but a pleasure.
Tomorrow I plan to listen to the raw module and compare it to the Sure 4X TL2050 I am modding.
vmed_cha_gr reports that the T2 is dull in his system. My calculations show that at 4 ohms, the T2 should be slightly bright in the highs but not as much as the Sure is. However, If the bass and especially the lower midrange are fuller it could be masking the highs.
 
It is this Hifimediy T2 2*100W TRIPATH TK2050 TC2000 10000uf | eBay
STA505, 10000uF version. Hifimediy recomends about 28volts to be safe. The speakers are 4ohm ribbons, very revealing above about 4000Hz and through the midrange below 2000hz with a deep BBC Dip. The DIY speakers I am working on will have planar mid/highs, be revealing at all frequencies, and be pure resistance, so I'll be able to drop the zobel. But they won't be ready for months (until it warms up enough to work in my garage).
 
T2

Hi there.
From one thread to another. Tomorrow i will measure my tweeters. See if the amphion titaniums (from seas) are 4ohm or 6ohm. Then i will post my measurements here & find the final values for the filter. By the way i checked T2 to my Alesis monitor ones (4ohm loads) & have the same dull hights as the ampions. Lets see if i will get the perfest match here. I'll keep you informed.
Vassilis

It is this Hifimediy T2 2*100W TRIPATH TK2050 TC2000 10000uf | eBay
STA505, 10000uF version. Hifimediy recomends about 28volts to be safe. The speakers are 4ohm ribbons, very revealing above about 4000Hz and through the midrange below 2000hz with a deep BBC Dip. The DIY speakers I am working on will have planar mid/highs, be revealing at all frequencies, and be pure resistance, so I'll be able to drop the zobel. But they won't be ready for months (until it warms up enough to work in my garage).
 
Hi Vassilis, Thanks for coming to this thread.
Hi again Malefoda,

I just hooked up my Hifimediy T2 and did a very rough comparison, two slow switches back and forth. The Unmodified Sure 4x TK2050 and the T2 are very close, the differences are small. I found the T2 slightly warmer in the mids, brighter in the highs. The lows were close enough that I can't comment. The T2 seemed more focused and the highs cleaner and less splashy, even if brighter. Both had a huge soundstage.
The fact that the T2 is bright and needs additional tailoring with an external zobel jives with my calculations. My calculations don't say why the T2 is brighter than the Sure.
I'm sorry Vassills, except for the slight extra midrange warmth of the T2, they both sound very much alike in my system.
 
Hi again, please check out my latest post on "Class-D Output Filter - A Case Study" I comment that if you want to replace your board's output filter with one designed specifically for your speakers, you can choose the 33uH inductor and calculate the capacitor to go with it. This way you can let the inductor remain constant, switch the capacitor to match different speakers, letting the corner frequency of the filter change, all without suffering problems. Of course you would have to change the zobel for each speaker.
By the way, I have four 33uH inductors on order, but I have not tested any of this theory. It could turn out that matching the output filter and zobel to your speakers, and thus reduce the excessive highs of the amps we are talking about, may take all the life out of the amps. It is possible we will end up having to tweak the highs to get what we want. One good thing is, by matching the zobel to the speaker, it reduces the variable of the tweeter inductance. Then we can simply adjust the single component, the capacitor(s) in the output filter, to get the highs we want.
 
?

Before measuring my tweeters i just have a question. Which values (for 4ohm speakers) do most of the class-d manufactures recommend for the output filter ? I'm looking for the standard values they give for inductors, capacitors & zobel filter. I just want to have them for reference before modding the T2.
Thanks


Hi again, please check out my latest post on "Class-D Output Filter - A Case Study" I comment that if you want to replace your board's output filter with one designed specifically for your speakers, you can choose the 33uH inductor and calculate the capacitor to go with it. This way you can let the inductor remain constant, switch the capacitor to match different speakers, letting the corner frequency of the filter change, all without suffering problems. Of course you would have to change the zobel for each speaker.
By the way, I have four 33uH inductors on order, but I have not tested any of this theory. It could turn out that matching the output filter and zobel to your speakers, and thus reduce the excessive highs of the amps we are talking about, may take all the life out of the amps. It is possible we will end up having to tweak the highs to get what we want. One good thing is, by matching the zobel to the speaker, it reduces the variable of the tweeter inductance. Then we can simply adjust the single component, the capacitor(s) in the output filter, to get the highs we want.
 
I haven't seen a recommendation and the schematics I've seen vary a lot, especially considering that the oscillation frequency varies between manuf. The values on the T2 board, from the schematic on the web site, are 11nH, 0.47uF, and the zobel is 0.47uF and 10ohms.
Now that I have had a chance to really hear the T2, I find the warmth in the midrange does mask some detail. Compared to the Sure, the T2 is not as clear and wonderfully detailed. I think the Sure is on the lean side and accentuates ambiance and detail, but I love it so. The T2 is probably more neutral.
I suspect that the 3.6uF input capacitors (the web site says 3.3uF but the capacitor says 3u6, and I interpret the u in this takes the place of the period) are causing the midrange warmth. I tried different values on the Sure and discovered when I got up to 2uF that the midrange was getting too warm so I backed off to 1.0uF and it sounds wonderful. I know I am sacrificing some bass, but the midrange is so beautiful, fun, and satisfying that I am willing.
My experience with changing the zobel on the Sure is that it effects the highs a lot but not the clarity of the midrange as much. So I think changing the whole output filter is going to do the same.
Then there is the 10000uF power capacitor, what effect does it have on the midrange? By the way, I am using 29v DC.
 
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