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Old 4th October 2007, 01:15 PM   #31
KP11520 is offline KP11520  United States
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Hi Dave,

Thank you for all your effort. It will be years before I will have the ability to do all this, so your work really helps guys like me.

I have two questions. First, have you ever tried the Wima MKP10s? Supposedly close to the sound of the Auricaps in a different shape and footprint. These are just hard to get in the US. I went to one of the three US importers and they sent me a sample pair recently because none of their didtributors had any in stock. The Inter-Technical Group in Elmsford, NY is where I went. Give them a call and maybe they will send some samples. They are wondering why these don't move here.

Second question, do your impressions and info also apply to the analog output stage of a CD Player too. I know that you are doing these tests with an Amp.

Conrad's point of a more controlled environment is true but I think there is also a much needed place for subjective impressions like these, as well, to narrow down the field of choices for our applications and listening preferences.

Keep it up! And Thank you!

Regards//Keith
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Old 5th October 2007, 07:14 PM   #32
Davet is offline Davet  United States
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Default Response to KP11520

Keith,

No, I don't have a set of the Wima MKP10s. I will try to contact them for a set to test.

Based on a suggestion from Panomaniac I no longer use the independent DAC. All the test to date have been from the analogue output of a heavily modified Samsung HD-841 DVD player which feeds into the 41hz-AMP6. The capacitors are switched in the AMP6 circuit.

Conrad's observations may have great validity, but I am not in search of the Holy Grail. I started down this path based on the caps I had on hand. Fellow DIYers have contributed caps for testing. I would gladly attempt to validate Conrad's observations if someone were to provide matched caps.

That being said, I am willing to measure and post the capacitance of the film caps I am currently testing. If such data would be of interest to the community. For the moment my subjective listening will have to do.

This subjective listening does take one helluva lot of time. Going back and forth between caps to try to isolate things I hear and then try to reduce that to words - is a daunting task. I just hope my subjective rantings help the DIY community.
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Old 5th October 2007, 07:22 PM   #33
Davet is offline Davet  United States
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Default Response to Finnegann

Quote:
Originally posted by Finnegann
The Obbligato caps are actually Metallized Polypropylene film in Oil, not paper in oli.
Thanks for the information regarding the Obbligato. Thus far I don't hear a pronounced difference between the two Obbligatos. The Russian PIO sounds very much like the Obbligato.

There may be criteria for picking the FIO (Film in oil) over the PIO, but my subjective listening matches them as damn near the same. This far I just like the sound of the Obbligatos.

Maybe once I get other ears to listen; they may be able to isolate differences between FIO and PIO.
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Old 5th October 2007, 10:49 PM   #34
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Great work, Dave, keep it up!

A couple of questions:

Which Blackgate are you using? There are several types.
I"ve used the C series and the E series (red).

Are you sure the Panasonic are FM series? The 41Hz kit's I've gotten all had FC series input caps. But Jan does switch parts around, so maybe he is shipping FM caps these days.

I'm surprised that you preferred the BG over the Pannies for input caps. Just goes to show it's not always what you expect. I didn't care much for the BGs I heard, but they did not have the long break in period that yours have. Must be something to it!

Again, great work.
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Old 5th October 2007, 10:49 PM   #35
KP11520 is offline KP11520  United States
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Hi Dave,

Thanks for responding!

When you call for samples talk to Andrew. He was great to work with.

I should have asked this differently, when you test these input caps for the Amp would the evaluations for them as input caps be applicable for them as output caps of a CD Player? In other words, you say the Obbligatos are warm, etc. in the amp, would they would have the same effect as output caps in a CD Player.

I am asking because most recommend the small Wima MKS2 caps for output caps between 2.2uf and 10uf because they sound better than the electrolytics installed and are small enough to fit into the 5mm spacing. But I have both MKP10 4.7uf and Obbligatos 4.7uf film/oil (both are supposed to sound better than the MKS2s) and hope that what is true for your input caps will also be true for output caps! Although I will have to get creative with how to mount them (they are big as you know).

Now about all that listening time... Too bad you didn't live closer, I would enjoy being some of those extra ears! I would bring beer (or coffee) but not both and tough it out along side you! I think this is one of the best parts but not when you're always doing it alone. It is always more enjoyable with several others that are into it too! We all like validation!

BTW, this is great! Thanks!

Regards//Keith
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Old 6th October 2007, 02:29 AM   #36
Davet is offline Davet  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by panomaniac

Which Blackgate are you using? There are several types.
I"ve used the C series and the E series (red).
I am using the PK series BGs. You have aroused my curiosity I will get a set of the C series for a future test.

Quote:

Are you sure the Panasonic are FM series? The 41Hz kit's I've gotten all had FC series input caps.
My error! The Panasonic caps from Jan were all FCs. I will get a set of FMs and run a comparison at some later date.

Quote:
I'm surprised that you preferred the BG over the Pannies for input caps. Just goes to show it's not always what you expect. I didn't care much for the BGs I heard, but they did not have the long break in period that yours have. Must be something to it!
There is something to the burn in for BGs. The FCs are more than adequate unless you are A/B'ing them against the BGs.
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Old 6th October 2007, 04:52 AM   #37
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by KP11520
when you test these input caps for the Amp would the evaluations for them as input caps be applicable for them as output caps of a CD Player?
Should do. They serve the sam purpose and are in the same place in the signal path.

FWIW, the tube guys say the red Wimas are on the warm side. But not super detailed. YMMV.


Quote:
Originally posted by Davet
I am using the PK series BGs. You have aroused my curiosity I will get a set of the C series for a future test.
Don't know if it's worth the bother. IIRC, the C series is the cheapest of the BG. The E series in non polarized, but with orientation. I used 2x1uF connected in opposite directions. I like film caps better. =) But the E series might be worth a listen. They are small, so can go in tight spaces.


Quote:
The Panasonic caps from Jan were all FCs. I will get a set of FMs and run a comparison at some later date.
I don't think the FM series comes in small values, that's why Jan ships the FC. FM is supposed to be a better cap, lower ESR. But don't know how it would sound as a DC blocking cap.
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Old 6th October 2007, 12:29 PM   #38
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Thanks Pano and Dave!

I will stay tuned in!

Regards//Keith
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Old 6th October 2007, 08:04 PM   #39
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A while ago I built an integrated gainclone with different coupling caps on each of three different inputs. The three caps are 4uF Russian square paper (in oil?) mbgo type, 2.2uF K75-24 and black gate N 4.7uF (two connected in parallel in different orientations).

With a modified moodlab dac, the black gates are clearly better in my system. More bass weight and definition (maybe related to the 9.4uF total capacitance..?) but also clearer mids and HF.

The K75-24 sound congested and HF sounds detached and aggressive.

The mbgo caps push the performers back but the overall effect is a bit distant and lacking in drive.

I've used other black gates (standard, type C and type Nx) but the parallel N and Nx types are far better than the any of the polar types.

I recently bought some of the obbligato oil caps and have installed these in my bedroom amp - really impressed so far. I haven't done a direct comparison between these and parallel black gate N yet...

I think this would be an interesting comparison, considering how much better the non-polar black gates are compared to the polar ones.
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Old 9th October 2007, 04:10 AM   #40
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Default EPCOS MKT Test Result

The EPCOS MKT Film capacitors, initially, came across sounding a little light. The “fatness” of the bass compared to the Obbligatos is lacking. The bowing of the bass on Wynton Marsalis' New Orleans Stomp is easily identified, but it is not as full bodied as the bass from the Obbligatos.

The highs are balanced compared to the rest of the presentation. The highs are not overly pronounced or “in your face”. This gives the sound stage good depth. The detail of brushes on cymbals and snares is accurate even if a little subdued compared to the Obbligatos. The soundstage is broad and the sound seems to come from well beyond the bounds of the speakers. The ambience of rooms for live recordings is well reproduced.

The overall presentation of these capacitors is low key. The presentation is more like a late night set where the musicians are not trying to blow you out of your chair. There is air around the musicians. The sound from the brass instruments is not as brassy as live horns. This would not be a negative if I had not listened to other capacitors.

I would summarize this capacitor to be clean or relaxed. None of the detail is lost on this cap and you do not have the sense of the musicians standing atop each other. The bass is clean and precise, but does not have that extra body/fatness. Female voices have no sibilance. The sound of the EPCOS MKT films grew on me as I played them. There is absolutely no listener fatigue from listening to these caps.

This capacitor is lacking very little and its strength is its size and cost. This capacitor is small and compact. It will fit easily on the AMP6, SI, and TA-10.1 PC-boards. The bass body may well be filled in with more capacitance if you desire more presence.

These EPCOS MKT 2.2-MFD capacitors were provided to me by BWRX. These were his favorites capacitors after Auricaps. These caps cost $1.27 (USD) from Digikey.com the Part Number: 495-1127-HD. The cost of this cap less shipping is 7% the cost of an Auricap.

I will test the Auricaps next, but at this point cost and size make this Capacitor a keeper in my opinion.

Capacitance Measurements are 2.23 and 2.24 MFD.
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