Blackgate vs Obbligat PIO
The following is the first of a series of test of coupling caps to be used in T-Amps. The music selections are many and varied. My overall approach is to listen to thirty seconds of a selection on each capacitor under test unless otherwise stated.. This allows me to maintain some degree of aural memory. At some point I will list all the selections that have sampled for these tests.
This specific series of tests were prompted by a post made by RajaCat. I had the Blackgates most recently in my test bed. So this is the cap that I tested against the Obbligato PIO. The capacitors under test all have had at least 370+ hours on them before testing. This will be the case unless specifically stated otherwise. This specific test took more than 16 hours of listening and the following is a sample of the music to which I listened.
The Blackgates played much louder than the PIO Obbligatos. The Blackgates had a broader (wider) soundstage, but sounded much more two dimensional. The Obbligatos had more air around the performers and the soundstage sounds much deeper. The highs of the Obbligatos sounded a little muted, but sounded more lifelike than the Blackgates. Cymbals when not as piercing with the Obbligatos compared to the Blackgates. The Obbligatos provide the shimmer of the Cymbals and not as edgy or pronounced as the Blackgates.
The bass from the Obbligatos is not as full or pronounced as the Blackgates.
On Sly and the family Stone's - Everyday People the musicians sounded as if they were standing on top of each other. On complex passages there is smearing with Blackgates. The air around the musicians in the Obbligatos presentation makes the performance much more intelligible. The Horns sound brassy with the Blackgates more so than the Obbligatos.
On Wynton Marsalis’ - New Orleans Bump from the album Mr. Lord Jelly Roll the tuba sounds contextually more like a tuba with the Obbligatos. The musicians are spread across the soundstage with the Obbligatos. Beneath the second saxophone solo the bass is bowed twice rather than plucked. This is subtle but one can clearly discern the difference between the bass drum, tuba, and bowed bass with the Obbligatos. The bowing is discernable if you are listening for it with the Blackgates, but it sounds to be more of an overtone to the various sounds in the bass register rather than a distinct instrument.
Although the Blackgates yield a wider soundstage the presentation has no depth and sounds more analytical than life like. The Blackgates yield a perception of more power than the Obbligatos. The Blackgates clearly play louder than the Obbligatos. The Blackgates are most enjoyable when the composition is of a small combo or solo where there is not a lot of complex passages. Solo piano and piano trios the Blackgates are excellent.
On Tony Bennett’s - Steppin’ Out With My Baby the bass from the Blackgates was overpowering. The Blackgates have a larger presentation of the piano – larger than life. Conversely, the soundboard of the piano is broad and percussive with the Obbligatos.
The brush work on Roy Hargrove’s - My Foolish Heart provides a level of detail to focus on. The Brushes on the cymbals allows you to hear the contact withy the various cymbals and the brushes can clearly be distinguished between that and the rivets on the cymbal. There is no etched cut through of the cymbals, but rather just the ring one associates with an accomplished accompanying drummer with the Obbligatos. The brush work with the Blackgates is not as lifelike.
On Bobby Darin’s - A Nightingale Sang in Barkley Square – The violins have a smooth woody tone. There is a harp in the midst of this orchestra and it can be heard if listened to closely. All the instruments of the orchestra are easily distinguished. And the sound comes in layers from front to rear with Obbligatos. With the Blackgates the violins get lost in the mix, because of the complexity of the composition; the violins sound more akin to a synthesizer than strings.
On Dinah Washington – Nice Work if You Can Get It there is no sibilance in her solo and Clifford Brown’s trumpet solo sounds brassy and is separated in space with plenty of air about it with the PIOs. The Blackgates really shinned when it came to the trumpet solo, but the air around the instrument isn’t there. However it certainly sounds like a trumpet.
On Sweet Honey and the Rock’s - I Hear a Knockin which is an A cappella performance of four women. Both sets of caps do a find job of reproducing the performance. The women seem to have bodies with the Obbligatos, there seems to be a life like presence. Whereas, the Blackgates create every nuance of the music, but the liveliness is not there.
On Jon B.’s - They Don’t Know the closely miked bass drum is forceful full bodied. Backup singer voices are clearly spread across the soundstage. The various percussion instruments can clearly be heard with air about them with sharp attack where appropriate with Obbligatos. The Blackgates reproduce the music, but the voices sound like one rather than separate voices.
Zubin Metha's - Pictures at an Exhibition the acoustics of the venue are clearly replicated. There is depth to the soundstage. Power of the tympanis is felt and the various strings can be heard and distinguished. Percussion is sharp and not smothered in the overall orchestration with the Obbligatos. This distinguishing quality is lost with the Blackgates, although the bass is not lacking in the least.
To insure what I was hearing wasn’t biased based on my selection of source material, I listened to The Doobie Brothers Greatest Hits, James Taylor Hourglass, and Led Zeppelin IV. I listened to these albums in their entirety using both caps. The Blackgates provided the broad soundstage and on a few of the Doobie’s tracks there is some interplay between left and right channels and the separation was most pronounced. The loudness is a factor when listening to these albums, but to a lesser degree with James Taylor.
When I switched to the PIOs everything just sounded more life like. I was truly surprised that Led Zeppelin’s - Stairway to Heaven and Black Dog sounded better with the PIOs. The PIOs yielded a new level of enjoyment to these rock classics. There was more separation and definition amongst the performers. For the first time it sounded more like I may have been in the recording studio rather than at a rock concert. The timber of the acoustic instruments is just uncanny with the PIOs. The performances have depth front to rear as well as from side to side.
If power (volume) from the T-AMP is a primary concern the Blackgates provide a much louder performance than The PIOs. A major benefit of the Blackgates is their size. They are small and compact and will easily fit on any of the T-Amp boards taking up minimal real estate. Another bonus is the Blackgates are relatively inexpensive from less than a dollar (US) up to $4 (US) which does not include shipping.
The Obbligatos PIOs are huge and are radial. They require either separate enclosures or a custom enclosure that will encase them with the T-AMP. A draw back is that these caps generate a slight hum which I have not been able to isolate to remove. It has been suggested that this problem goes away when they are enclosed in the chassis; this is not the case for my test platform. The hum is not noticeable unless you are within two feet of the speakers, and this is at a relatively high volume setting. The Obbligatos cost $5.50 (US) each including shipping.
In this shoot out I give the edge to the Obbligatos PIO over the Blackgates.
The following is the first of a series of test of coupling caps to be used in T-Amps. The music selections are many and varied. My overall approach is to listen to thirty seconds of a selection on each capacitor under test unless otherwise stated.. This allows me to maintain some degree of aural memory. At some point I will list all the selections that have sampled for these tests.
This specific series of tests were prompted by a post made by RajaCat. I had the Blackgates most recently in my test bed. So this is the cap that I tested against the Obbligato PIO. The capacitors under test all have had at least 370+ hours on them before testing. This will be the case unless specifically stated otherwise. This specific test took more than 16 hours of listening and the following is a sample of the music to which I listened.
The Blackgates played much louder than the PIO Obbligatos. The Blackgates had a broader (wider) soundstage, but sounded much more two dimensional. The Obbligatos had more air around the performers and the soundstage sounds much deeper. The highs of the Obbligatos sounded a little muted, but sounded more lifelike than the Blackgates. Cymbals when not as piercing with the Obbligatos compared to the Blackgates. The Obbligatos provide the shimmer of the Cymbals and not as edgy or pronounced as the Blackgates.
The bass from the Obbligatos is not as full or pronounced as the Blackgates.
On Sly and the family Stone's - Everyday People the musicians sounded as if they were standing on top of each other. On complex passages there is smearing with Blackgates. The air around the musicians in the Obbligatos presentation makes the performance much more intelligible. The Horns sound brassy with the Blackgates more so than the Obbligatos.
On Wynton Marsalis’ - New Orleans Bump from the album Mr. Lord Jelly Roll the tuba sounds contextually more like a tuba with the Obbligatos. The musicians are spread across the soundstage with the Obbligatos. Beneath the second saxophone solo the bass is bowed twice rather than plucked. This is subtle but one can clearly discern the difference between the bass drum, tuba, and bowed bass with the Obbligatos. The bowing is discernable if you are listening for it with the Blackgates, but it sounds to be more of an overtone to the various sounds in the bass register rather than a distinct instrument.
Although the Blackgates yield a wider soundstage the presentation has no depth and sounds more analytical than life like. The Blackgates yield a perception of more power than the Obbligatos. The Blackgates clearly play louder than the Obbligatos. The Blackgates are most enjoyable when the composition is of a small combo or solo where there is not a lot of complex passages. Solo piano and piano trios the Blackgates are excellent.
On Tony Bennett’s - Steppin’ Out With My Baby the bass from the Blackgates was overpowering. The Blackgates have a larger presentation of the piano – larger than life. Conversely, the soundboard of the piano is broad and percussive with the Obbligatos.
The brush work on Roy Hargrove’s - My Foolish Heart provides a level of detail to focus on. The Brushes on the cymbals allows you to hear the contact withy the various cymbals and the brushes can clearly be distinguished between that and the rivets on the cymbal. There is no etched cut through of the cymbals, but rather just the ring one associates with an accomplished accompanying drummer with the Obbligatos. The brush work with the Blackgates is not as lifelike.
On Bobby Darin’s - A Nightingale Sang in Barkley Square – The violins have a smooth woody tone. There is a harp in the midst of this orchestra and it can be heard if listened to closely. All the instruments of the orchestra are easily distinguished. And the sound comes in layers from front to rear with Obbligatos. With the Blackgates the violins get lost in the mix, because of the complexity of the composition; the violins sound more akin to a synthesizer than strings.
On Dinah Washington – Nice Work if You Can Get It there is no sibilance in her solo and Clifford Brown’s trumpet solo sounds brassy and is separated in space with plenty of air about it with the PIOs. The Blackgates really shinned when it came to the trumpet solo, but the air around the instrument isn’t there. However it certainly sounds like a trumpet.
On Sweet Honey and the Rock’s - I Hear a Knockin which is an A cappella performance of four women. Both sets of caps do a find job of reproducing the performance. The women seem to have bodies with the Obbligatos, there seems to be a life like presence. Whereas, the Blackgates create every nuance of the music, but the liveliness is not there.
On Jon B.’s - They Don’t Know the closely miked bass drum is forceful full bodied. Backup singer voices are clearly spread across the soundstage. The various percussion instruments can clearly be heard with air about them with sharp attack where appropriate with Obbligatos. The Blackgates reproduce the music, but the voices sound like one rather than separate voices.
Zubin Metha's - Pictures at an Exhibition the acoustics of the venue are clearly replicated. There is depth to the soundstage. Power of the tympanis is felt and the various strings can be heard and distinguished. Percussion is sharp and not smothered in the overall orchestration with the Obbligatos. This distinguishing quality is lost with the Blackgates, although the bass is not lacking in the least.
To insure what I was hearing wasn’t biased based on my selection of source material, I listened to The Doobie Brothers Greatest Hits, James Taylor Hourglass, and Led Zeppelin IV. I listened to these albums in their entirety using both caps. The Blackgates provided the broad soundstage and on a few of the Doobie’s tracks there is some interplay between left and right channels and the separation was most pronounced. The loudness is a factor when listening to these albums, but to a lesser degree with James Taylor.
When I switched to the PIOs everything just sounded more life like. I was truly surprised that Led Zeppelin’s - Stairway to Heaven and Black Dog sounded better with the PIOs. The PIOs yielded a new level of enjoyment to these rock classics. There was more separation and definition amongst the performers. For the first time it sounded more like I may have been in the recording studio rather than at a rock concert. The timber of the acoustic instruments is just uncanny with the PIOs. The performances have depth front to rear as well as from side to side.
If power (volume) from the T-AMP is a primary concern the Blackgates provide a much louder performance than The PIOs. A major benefit of the Blackgates is their size. They are small and compact and will easily fit on any of the T-Amp boards taking up minimal real estate. Another bonus is the Blackgates are relatively inexpensive from less than a dollar (US) up to $4 (US) which does not include shipping.
The Obbligatos PIOs are huge and are radial. They require either separate enclosures or a custom enclosure that will encase them with the T-AMP. A draw back is that these caps generate a slight hum which I have not been able to isolate to remove. It has been suggested that this problem goes away when they are enclosed in the chassis; this is not the case for my test platform. The hum is not noticeable unless you are within two feet of the speakers, and this is at a relatively high volume setting. The Obbligatos cost $5.50 (US) each including shipping.
In this shoot out I give the edge to the Obbligatos PIO over the Blackgates.
Russian PIO vs Obbligato PIO
These Russian PIO caps sound very similar to the Obbligato PIOs. The Obbligato PIOs play a little louder, otherwise, I hear very little difference between these two PIOs. There is no variance in the volume settings between the various caps being tested. The volume is set at about 10 o’clock on a scale from 1 – 12. These Russian PIO caps have very little hum compared to the Obbligatos PIOs where this has been a problem.
The soundstage is equally as deep and as wide as the Obbligatos. These Russian PIOs are somewhat smaller than the Obbligatos but not compact enough to easily fit inside a TA-10.1 chassis.
These caps cost $2 (US) each including shipping. Where the Obbligatos cost $5.50 (US) each including shipping. The cost of shipping was to the USA. The Russian PIOs are a value for they perform the same as the Obbligatos at 36% the cost delivered of that of the Obbligatos and are in a slightly smaller package.
When cost and size are taken into account The Russian PIOs are the winners in this round.
These Russian PIO caps sound very similar to the Obbligato PIOs. The Obbligato PIOs play a little louder, otherwise, I hear very little difference between these two PIOs. There is no variance in the volume settings between the various caps being tested. The volume is set at about 10 o’clock on a scale from 1 – 12. These Russian PIO caps have very little hum compared to the Obbligatos PIOs where this has been a problem.
The soundstage is equally as deep and as wide as the Obbligatos. These Russian PIOs are somewhat smaller than the Obbligatos but not compact enough to easily fit inside a TA-10.1 chassis.
These caps cost $2 (US) each including shipping. Where the Obbligatos cost $5.50 (US) each including shipping. The cost of shipping was to the USA. The Russian PIOs are a value for they perform the same as the Obbligatos at 36% the cost delivered of that of the Obbligatos and are in a slightly smaller package.
When cost and size are taken into account The Russian PIOs are the winners in this round.
Juoiter Caps
Recca,
I still have quite a number of caps yet to test. I started down this path based on the caps I had on hand. I do not have any Jupiters on hand, but I may have some before this is all completed.
As to films that I have on hand are: Radio Shacks, Solens; Auricaps; Obbligatto; and MKPs. In addition I have a number of caps that I need to test as bypasses.
So at this juncture the answer is no, but I have some parts I have to order for a few projects and I may pick some Jupiters up.
recca said:
Recca,
I still have quite a number of caps yet to test. I started down this path based on the caps I had on hand. I do not have any Jupiters on hand, but I may have some before this is all completed.
As to films that I have on hand are: Radio Shacks, Solens; Auricaps; Obbligatto; and MKPs. In addition I have a number of caps that I need to test as bypasses.
So at this juncture the answer is no, but I have some parts I have to order for a few projects and I may pick some Jupiters up.
Blackgates vs Pansonics
I have been listening to burned Blackgate (BG) and Panasonic FM (FM) caps for this segment of testing. These electrolytic caps have better than 380 hours of burn in time on them. The FM caps are the ones supplied with the AMP6 amplifier kit from 41HZ. Testing these caps took a lot of listening, for these caps are very close in sound and the differences are very subtle, to my ears.
The volume control was kept at the same 10 o'clock position for all tests. I tried to listen to 30 second slices of selections, but occasionally I got caught up in the music and played the whole selection through.
__BG__________________________________________________
The BGs are not as forward and in your face as the FMs. The BGs have a more relaxed presentation and the bass is not as full as the FMs. The BGs are not as fatiguing to listen to long term. I did not detect any pronounced sibilance on female vocals. Cymbals - not being as prominent make for more depth of sound stage.
The bowed bass On New Orleans Stomp has somewhat more air around it than the FMs, but not the life likeness of the Obbligatos. Plucked bass has air around it and sounds more percussive.
The acoustic guitar in the beginning of Stairway To Heaven has the rich sound of the wooden body of the guitar. The vocalist and the flutist have air around them. There is a sense of the sound of the studio.
On James Taylor's Line 'Em Up there is no doubt there is more than one vocalist. You can clearly hear the lead and the background singers.
The BGs provide some depth of sound stage, although it is somewhat shallow. There is less body (presence) to tom-toms which sound more life like. The snares on the snare drum clearly denote that it is a snare drum. Percussion sounds such as triangles, chimes, etc. sound more life like. Cymbals sound more "bell-like" with air around them.
The sound stage is clearly centered between the speakers. There seems to be little sonic information emanating wider than the speakers. The ambiance of the room is better captured by the BGs.
The BGs sound good on solo piano, but the body of the instrument sounds "light". The presence is more restrained - distant.
__FM_________________________________________________
The FMs yield greater presence, but at the expense of detail. The highs are pronounced and forward. There is more sibilance on female voices than with the BGs.
The bowing of the bass on New Orleans Stomp is "muddy". You can hear it but it is not really clear that there is a bass being bowed. You hear the tone, but it is not clearly discernable a bowed bass. Plucked bass sounds "tubby". I would surmise the bass to sound "fat". The attack or lead into a bass note is rounded and smeared not as percussive.
The acoustic guitar in the beginning of Stairway To Heaven sounds almost like a steel guitar. The tone of the strings is pronounced, but the sound (overtone) of the wooden body is lost. The vocalist and the flutist sound like they are playing into the same mike or they are standing atop of each other.
On James Taylor's Line 'Em Up the multiple voices sound like one. It is hard to discern there are multiple vocalist.
The air around the performers is virtually non-existent compared to the BGS. the sound is very two dimensional. I would attribute this to the forwardness of the treble which seems to place cymbals on the same plane as horn players. Percussion such as triangles, chimes, etc sound as if there is a blanket between the performer and my listening position. The muffling I attribute to the more prominent bass.
The FMs Yield a somewhat wider sound stage. The sound on orchestral works seem to be in a much larger room, but the strings sound "tubby".
The FMs really sound fantastic on solo piano. This forwardness places the instrument clearly in the room, and you seem to "feel" the soundboard when the performer blocks chords.
_Bottom_Line__________________________________________
Overall the FMs sound good right out the box (or kit as it were). For rock, electronic music, or heavily engineered recordings the FMs would be my choice. This places the performers right up front and in your face with a broad sound stage.
The BGs are bettered suited to acoustic instruments and female vocalist. The BGs place the performers in the room with with air around them. There is a subtle amount of control to all the instruments and a more life like presentation.
The BGs get the nod here, but only because of the A/B. The FMs are more than adequate if you have not heard any other capacitor.
I have been listening to burned Blackgate (BG) and Panasonic FM (FM) caps for this segment of testing. These electrolytic caps have better than 380 hours of burn in time on them. The FM caps are the ones supplied with the AMP6 amplifier kit from 41HZ. Testing these caps took a lot of listening, for these caps are very close in sound and the differences are very subtle, to my ears.
The volume control was kept at the same 10 o'clock position for all tests. I tried to listen to 30 second slices of selections, but occasionally I got caught up in the music and played the whole selection through.
__BG__________________________________________________
The BGs are not as forward and in your face as the FMs. The BGs have a more relaxed presentation and the bass is not as full as the FMs. The BGs are not as fatiguing to listen to long term. I did not detect any pronounced sibilance on female vocals. Cymbals - not being as prominent make for more depth of sound stage.
The bowed bass On New Orleans Stomp has somewhat more air around it than the FMs, but not the life likeness of the Obbligatos. Plucked bass has air around it and sounds more percussive.
The acoustic guitar in the beginning of Stairway To Heaven has the rich sound of the wooden body of the guitar. The vocalist and the flutist have air around them. There is a sense of the sound of the studio.
On James Taylor's Line 'Em Up there is no doubt there is more than one vocalist. You can clearly hear the lead and the background singers.
The BGs provide some depth of sound stage, although it is somewhat shallow. There is less body (presence) to tom-toms which sound more life like. The snares on the snare drum clearly denote that it is a snare drum. Percussion sounds such as triangles, chimes, etc. sound more life like. Cymbals sound more "bell-like" with air around them.
The sound stage is clearly centered between the speakers. There seems to be little sonic information emanating wider than the speakers. The ambiance of the room is better captured by the BGs.
The BGs sound good on solo piano, but the body of the instrument sounds "light". The presence is more restrained - distant.
__FM_________________________________________________
The FMs yield greater presence, but at the expense of detail. The highs are pronounced and forward. There is more sibilance on female voices than with the BGs.
The bowing of the bass on New Orleans Stomp is "muddy". You can hear it but it is not really clear that there is a bass being bowed. You hear the tone, but it is not clearly discernable a bowed bass. Plucked bass sounds "tubby". I would surmise the bass to sound "fat". The attack or lead into a bass note is rounded and smeared not as percussive.
The acoustic guitar in the beginning of Stairway To Heaven sounds almost like a steel guitar. The tone of the strings is pronounced, but the sound (overtone) of the wooden body is lost. The vocalist and the flutist sound like they are playing into the same mike or they are standing atop of each other.
On James Taylor's Line 'Em Up the multiple voices sound like one. It is hard to discern there are multiple vocalist.
The air around the performers is virtually non-existent compared to the BGS. the sound is very two dimensional. I would attribute this to the forwardness of the treble which seems to place cymbals on the same plane as horn players. Percussion such as triangles, chimes, etc sound as if there is a blanket between the performer and my listening position. The muffling I attribute to the more prominent bass.
The FMs Yield a somewhat wider sound stage. The sound on orchestral works seem to be in a much larger room, but the strings sound "tubby".
The FMs really sound fantastic on solo piano. This forwardness places the instrument clearly in the room, and you seem to "feel" the soundboard when the performer blocks chords.
_Bottom_Line__________________________________________
Overall the FMs sound good right out the box (or kit as it were). For rock, electronic music, or heavily engineered recordings the FMs would be my choice. This places the performers right up front and in your face with a broad sound stage.
The BGs are bettered suited to acoustic instruments and female vocalist. The BGs place the performers in the room with with air around them. There is a subtle amount of control to all the instruments and a more life like presentation.
The BGs get the nod here, but only because of the A/B. The FMs are more than adequate if you have not heard any other capacitor.
Film Caps on Deck
I regret that I haven't had the time to update this thread with new tests. Too much to do, and too little time to get it done. Although, I haven't conducted any new test I have been burning in film caps.
I have a set of Solens and Radio Shack films that have been burning in for more than 600 hours. These will be going up against The Obbligatto, MKT, and Auricaps film capacitors.
If all goes well and I don't get swept up in the music I should have the first round of this shot out completed this week.
Thanks all for your patience.
I regret that I haven't had the time to update this thread with new tests. Too much to do, and too little time to get it done. Although, I haven't conducted any new test I have been burning in film caps.
I have a set of Solens and Radio Shack films that have been burning in for more than 600 hours. These will be going up against The Obbligatto, MKT, and Auricaps film capacitors.
If all goes well and I don't get swept up in the music I should have the first round of this shot out completed this week.
Thanks all for your patience.
Selected Music
I have listed the music which I use to evaluate the various capacitors. I have quite a few compilation CDs (NBA, Williams-Sonoma, etc.). I have found these CDs expose me to music selections I wouldn't normally purchase.
I have mad selections and burned a Test CD. This allows me listen for specific details and to move on to the next selection with little distraction. This is why I have selections from the same CD are in various places and not back to back.
Most of the selections are acoustic. I know, first hand, what most band instruments sound like. My preference is Jazz and I have included a classical piece and some rock. The following list is the track title; length; artist; and the CD title.
I have listed the music which I use to evaluate the various capacitors. I have quite a few compilation CDs (NBA, Williams-Sonoma, etc.). I have found these CDs expose me to music selections I wouldn't normally purchase.
I have mad selections and burned a Test CD. This allows me listen for specific details and to move on to the next selection with little distraction. This is why I have selections from the same CD are in various places and not back to back.
Most of the selections are acoustic. I know, first hand, what most band instruments sound like. My preference is Jazz and I have included a classical piece and some rock. The following list is the track title; length; artist; and the CD title.
- Excusions (2:49) - Abdullah Ibrahim
Capetown Flowers
- Old Country (5:04) - Diane Reeves
The Grand Encounter
- The River (5:37) - Monty Alexander
The River
- Better Than Anything (4:55) - Nnenna Freelon
Soul Call
- Georgia (6.38) - Charles Lloyd
The Water is Wide
- Thank You (Falettimme Be Nice Elf Agin) (4:46) -
Sly & The Family Stone
I Still Love This Game (NBA)
- New Orleans Bump (3:44) - Wynton Marsalis
Mr. Lord Jelly Roll
- Steppin’ Out With My Baby (2:52) - Tony Bennett
I Still Love This Game (NBA)
- My Foolish Heart (7:36) - Roy Hargrove
Oscar Peterson Meets Roy Hargrove and Ralph Moore
- A Nightingale Sang in Barkley Square (3:01) - Bobby Darin
Dinner Is Served (Williams-Sonoma)
- The Good Life (5:44) - Winard Harper
Winard
- Nice Work If You Can Get It (2:34) - Sarah Vaughn
Dinner Is Served (Williams-Sonoma)
- Once Forgotten (5:44) - Roy Hargrove
Roy Hargrove Quintet with the Tenors of Our Time
- They Don’t Know (4:34) - Jon B.
I Still Love This Game (NBA)
- You Don’t Know What Love Is (5:41) - Winard Harper
Trap Dancer
- Rosewood (2:43) - Wynton Marsalis
Reeltime
- Stairway To Heaven (8:00) - Led Zeppelin
Led Zeppelin IV
- Pictures at an Exhibition - Zubin Mehta NYPO
Mussorgsky & Ravel – Mehta
Track 1 (1:40 – 3:52)
- Line ‘Em Up (4:42) - James Taylor
Hourglass
- Takin’ It to The Streets (3:36) - Doobie Brothers
Best of the Doobies
- Old Devil Moon (5:45) - Cassandra Wilson & Jackie Terrasson
Rendezvous
- After The Dead (2:36) - Wynton Marsalis
Reeltime
- Honeysuckle Rose (3:38) – Jane MonHeit
Taking a Chance on Love
Hi Dave,
Thank you for all your effort. It will be years before I will have the ability to do all this, so your work really helps guys like me.
I have two questions. First, have you ever tried the Wima MKP10s? Supposedly close to the sound of the Auricaps in a different shape and footprint. These are just hard to get in the US. I went to one of the three US importers and they sent me a sample pair recently because none of their didtributors had any in stock. The Inter-Technical Group in Elmsford, NY is where I went. Give them a call and maybe they will send some samples. They are wondering why these don't move here.
Second question, do your impressions and info also apply to the analog output stage of a CD Player too. I know that you are doing these tests with an Amp.
Conrad's point of a more controlled environment is true but I think there is also a much needed place for subjective impressions like these, as well, to narrow down the field of choices for our applications and listening preferences.
Keep it up! And Thank you!
Regards//Keith
Thank you for all your effort. It will be years before I will have the ability to do all this, so your work really helps guys like me.
I have two questions. First, have you ever tried the Wima MKP10s? Supposedly close to the sound of the Auricaps in a different shape and footprint. These are just hard to get in the US. I went to one of the three US importers and they sent me a sample pair recently because none of their didtributors had any in stock. The Inter-Technical Group in Elmsford, NY is where I went. Give them a call and maybe they will send some samples. They are wondering why these don't move here.
Second question, do your impressions and info also apply to the analog output stage of a CD Player too. I know that you are doing these tests with an Amp.
Conrad's point of a more controlled environment is true but I think there is also a much needed place for subjective impressions like these, as well, to narrow down the field of choices for our applications and listening preferences.
Keep it up! And Thank you!
Regards//Keith
Response to KP11520
Keith,
No, I don't have a set of the Wima MKP10s. I will try to contact them for a set to test.
Based on a suggestion from Panomaniac I no longer use the independent DAC. All the test to date have been from the analogue output of a heavily modified Samsung HD-841 DVD player which feeds into the 41hz-AMP6. The capacitors are switched in the AMP6 circuit.
Conrad's observations may have great validity, but I am not in search of the Holy Grail. I started down this path based on the caps I had on hand. Fellow DIYers have contributed caps for testing. I would gladly attempt to validate Conrad's observations if someone were to provide matched caps.
That being said, I am willing to measure and post the capacitance of the film caps I am currently testing. If such data would be of interest to the community. For the moment my subjective listening will have to do.
This subjective listening does take one helluva lot of time. Going back and forth between caps to try to isolate things I hear and then try to reduce that to words - is a daunting task. I just hope my subjective rantings help the DIY community.
Keith,
No, I don't have a set of the Wima MKP10s. I will try to contact them for a set to test.
Based on a suggestion from Panomaniac I no longer use the independent DAC. All the test to date have been from the analogue output of a heavily modified Samsung HD-841 DVD player which feeds into the 41hz-AMP6. The capacitors are switched in the AMP6 circuit.
Conrad's observations may have great validity, but I am not in search of the Holy Grail. I started down this path based on the caps I had on hand. Fellow DIYers have contributed caps for testing. I would gladly attempt to validate Conrad's observations if someone were to provide matched caps.
That being said, I am willing to measure and post the capacitance of the film caps I am currently testing. If such data would be of interest to the community. For the moment my subjective listening will have to do.
This subjective listening does take one helluva lot of time. Going back and forth between caps to try to isolate things I hear and then try to reduce that to words - is a daunting task. I just hope my subjective rantings help the DIY community.
Response to Finnegann
Thanks for the information regarding the Obbligato. Thus far I don't hear a pronounced difference between the two Obbligatos. The Russian PIO sounds very much like the Obbligato.
There may be criteria for picking the FIO (Film in oil) over the PIO, but my subjective listening matches them as damn near the same. This far I just like the sound of the Obbligatos.
Maybe once I get other ears to listen; they may be able to isolate differences between FIO and PIO.
Finnegann said:
Thanks for the information regarding the Obbligato. Thus far I don't hear a pronounced difference between the two Obbligatos. The Russian PIO sounds very much like the Obbligato.
There may be criteria for picking the FIO (Film in oil) over the PIO, but my subjective listening matches them as damn near the same. This far I just like the sound of the Obbligatos.
Maybe once I get other ears to listen; they may be able to isolate differences between FIO and PIO.
Great work, Dave, keep it up!
A couple of questions:
Which Blackgate are you using? There are several types.
I"ve used the C series and the E series (red).
Are you sure the Panasonic are FM series? The 41Hz kit's I've gotten all had FC series input caps. But Jan does switch parts around, so maybe he is shipping FM caps these days.
I'm surprised that you preferred the BG over the Pannies for input caps. Just goes to show it's not always what you expect. I didn't care much for the BGs I heard, but they did not have the long break in period that yours have. Must be something to it!
Again, great work.
A couple of questions:
Which Blackgate are you using? There are several types.
I"ve used the C series and the E series (red).
Are you sure the Panasonic are FM series? The 41Hz kit's I've gotten all had FC series input caps. But Jan does switch parts around, so maybe he is shipping FM caps these days.
I'm surprised that you preferred the BG over the Pannies for input caps. Just goes to show it's not always what you expect. I didn't care much for the BGs I heard, but they did not have the long break in period that yours have. Must be something to it!
Again, great work.
Hi Dave,
Thanks for responding!
When you call for samples talk to Andrew. He was great to work with.
I should have asked this differently, when you test these input caps for the Amp would the evaluations for them as input caps be applicable for them as output caps of a CD Player? In other words, you say the Obbligatos are warm, etc. in the amp, would they would have the same effect as output caps in a CD Player.
I am asking because most recommend the small Wima MKS2 caps for output caps between 2.2uf and 10uf because they sound better than the electrolytics installed and are small enough to fit into the 5mm spacing. But I have both MKP10 4.7uf and Obbligatos 4.7uf film/oil (both are supposed to sound better than the MKS2s) and hope that what is true for your input caps will also be true for output caps! Although I will have to get creative with how to mount them (they are big as you know).
Now about all that listening time... Too bad you didn't live closer, I would enjoy being some of those extra ears! I would bring beer (or coffee) but not both and tough it out along side you! I think this is one of the best parts but not when you're always doing it alone. It is always more enjoyable with several others that are into it too! We all like validation!
BTW, this is great! Thanks!
Regards//Keith
Thanks for responding!
When you call for samples talk to Andrew. He was great to work with.
I should have asked this differently, when you test these input caps for the Amp would the evaluations for them as input caps be applicable for them as output caps of a CD Player? In other words, you say the Obbligatos are warm, etc. in the amp, would they would have the same effect as output caps in a CD Player.
I am asking because most recommend the small Wima MKS2 caps for output caps between 2.2uf and 10uf because they sound better than the electrolytics installed and are small enough to fit into the 5mm spacing. But I have both MKP10 4.7uf and Obbligatos 4.7uf film/oil (both are supposed to sound better than the MKS2s) and hope that what is true for your input caps will also be true for output caps! Although I will have to get creative with how to mount them (they are big as you know).
Now about all that listening time... Too bad you didn't live closer, I would enjoy being some of those extra ears! I would bring beer (or coffee) but not both and tough it out along side you! I think this is one of the best parts but not when you're always doing it alone. It is always more enjoyable with several others that are into it too! We all like validation!
BTW, this is great! Thanks!
Regards//Keith
panomaniac said:
I am using the PK series BGs. You have aroused my curiosity I will get a set of the C series for a future test.
My error! The Panasonic caps from Jan were all FCs. I will get a set of FMs and run a comparison at some later date.
There is something to the burn in for BGs. The FCs are more than adequate unless you are A/B'ing them against the BGs.
KP11520 said:
Should do. They serve the sam purpose and are in the same place in the signal path.
FWIW, the tube guys say the red Wimas are on the warm side. But not super detailed. YMMV.
Davet said:
Don't know if it's worth the bother. IIRC, the C series is the cheapest of the BG. The E series in non polarized, but with orientation. I used 2x1uF connected in opposite directions. I like film caps better. =) But the E series might be worth a listen. They are small, so can go in tight spaces.
I don't think the FM series comes in small values, that's why Jan ships the FC. FM is supposed to be a better cap, lower ESR. But don't know how it would sound as a DC blocking cap.
A while ago I built an integrated gainclone with different coupling caps on each of three different inputs. The three caps are 4uF Russian square paper (in oil?) mbgo type, 2.2uF K75-24 and black gate N 4.7uF (two connected in parallel in different orientations).
With a modified moodlab dac, the black gates are clearly better in my system. More bass weight and definition (maybe related to the 9.4uF total capacitance..?) but also clearer mids and HF.
The K75-24 sound congested and HF sounds detached and aggressive.
The mbgo caps push the performers back but the overall effect is a bit distant and lacking in drive.
I've used other black gates (standard, type C and type Nx) but the parallel N and Nx types are far better than the any of the polar types.
I recently bought some of the obbligato oil caps and have installed these in my bedroom amp - really impressed so far. I haven't done a direct comparison between these and parallel black gate N yet...
I think this would be an interesting comparison, considering how much better the non-polar black gates are compared to the polar ones.
With a modified moodlab dac, the black gates are clearly better in my system. More bass weight and definition (maybe related to the 9.4uF total capacitance..?) but also clearer mids and HF.
The K75-24 sound congested and HF sounds detached and aggressive.
The mbgo caps push the performers back but the overall effect is a bit distant and lacking in drive.
I've used other black gates (standard, type C and type Nx) but the parallel N and Nx types are far better than the any of the polar types.
I recently bought some of the obbligato oil caps and have installed these in my bedroom amp - really impressed so far. I haven't done a direct comparison between these and parallel black gate N yet...
I think this would be an interesting comparison, considering how much better the non-polar black gates are compared to the polar ones.
EPCOS MKT Test Result
The EPCOS MKT Film capacitors, initially, came across sounding a little light. The “fatness” of the bass compared to the Obbligatos is lacking. The bowing of the bass on Wynton Marsalis' New Orleans Stomp is easily identified, but it is not as full bodied as the bass from the Obbligatos.
The highs are balanced compared to the rest of the presentation. The highs are not overly pronounced or “in your face”. This gives the sound stage good depth. The detail of brushes on cymbals and snares is accurate even if a little subdued compared to the Obbligatos. The soundstage is broad and the sound seems to come from well beyond the bounds of the speakers. The ambience of rooms for live recordings is well reproduced.
The overall presentation of these capacitors is low key. The presentation is more like a late night set where the musicians are not trying to blow you out of your chair. There is air around the musicians. The sound from the brass instruments is not as brassy as live horns. This would not be a negative if I had not listened to other capacitors.
I would summarize this capacitor to be clean or relaxed. None of the detail is lost on this cap and you do not have the sense of the musicians standing atop each other. The bass is clean and precise, but does not have that extra body/fatness. Female voices have no sibilance. The sound of the EPCOS MKT films grew on me as I played them. There is absolutely no listener fatigue from listening to these caps.
This capacitor is lacking very little and its strength is its size and cost. This capacitor is small and compact. It will fit easily on the AMP6, SI, and TA-10.1 PC-boards. The bass body may well be filled in with more capacitance if you desire more presence.
These EPCOS MKT 2.2-MFD capacitors were provided to me by BWRX. These were his favorites capacitors after Auricaps. These caps cost $1.27 (USD) from Digikey.com the Part Number: 495-1127-HD. The cost of this cap less shipping is 7% the cost of an Auricap.
I will test the Auricaps next, but at this point cost and size make this Capacitor a keeper in my opinion.
Capacitance Measurements are 2.23 and 2.24 MFD.
The EPCOS MKT Film capacitors, initially, came across sounding a little light. The “fatness” of the bass compared to the Obbligatos is lacking. The bowing of the bass on Wynton Marsalis' New Orleans Stomp is easily identified, but it is not as full bodied as the bass from the Obbligatos.
The highs are balanced compared to the rest of the presentation. The highs are not overly pronounced or “in your face”. This gives the sound stage good depth. The detail of brushes on cymbals and snares is accurate even if a little subdued compared to the Obbligatos. The soundstage is broad and the sound seems to come from well beyond the bounds of the speakers. The ambience of rooms for live recordings is well reproduced.
The overall presentation of these capacitors is low key. The presentation is more like a late night set where the musicians are not trying to blow you out of your chair. There is air around the musicians. The sound from the brass instruments is not as brassy as live horns. This would not be a negative if I had not listened to other capacitors.
I would summarize this capacitor to be clean or relaxed. None of the detail is lost on this cap and you do not have the sense of the musicians standing atop each other. The bass is clean and precise, but does not have that extra body/fatness. Female voices have no sibilance. The sound of the EPCOS MKT films grew on me as I played them. There is absolutely no listener fatigue from listening to these caps.
This capacitor is lacking very little and its strength is its size and cost. This capacitor is small and compact. It will fit easily on the AMP6, SI, and TA-10.1 PC-boards. The bass body may well be filled in with more capacitance if you desire more presence.
These EPCOS MKT 2.2-MFD capacitors were provided to me by BWRX. These were his favorites capacitors after Auricaps. These caps cost $1.27 (USD) from Digikey.com the Part Number: 495-1127-HD. The cost of this cap less shipping is 7% the cost of an Auricap.
I will test the Auricaps next, but at this point cost and size make this Capacitor a keeper in my opinion.
Capacitance Measurements are 2.23 and 2.24 MFD.
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