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Old 24th May 2012, 09:49 AM   #3951
AndrewT is offline AndrewT  Scotland
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Pre,
can I see your science to support your post
Quote:
coloration would be unavoidable as long as there's a cap in c7.
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Old 24th May 2012, 10:16 AM   #3952
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andrew you know im not technically savy
enough to give you a satisfying enough answer.
i was simply stating that under a common knowledge that all caps have a sound.
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Old 24th May 2012, 11:28 AM   #3953
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I cannot agree with your last statement. I'm even less inclined to accept your contentious statement.
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Old 24th May 2012, 11:30 AM   #3954
bcmbob is offline bcmbob  United States
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Default Transparent or Colored ???

"Do caps have a sound?"

I tried to wrap what's left of my mind around this topic last night as I faded off to sleep. I'm proposing that we might be using the wrong terminology in describing caps.

Particularly with digital sources, there is a constant element , a stream of ones and zeros, that is reliably consistent.

My question is if a component actually changes that base signal or more correctly - all caps and resistors "filter" the stream. A term like coloration could in fact be allowing more of the "juice flavor" in the fruit to flow while, "transparent" could be filtering out the pulp of the juice, resulting what sounds cleaner or more pure.

I think it would be great for someone with sophisticated lab equipment to be able to create a series of spectral graphs as a baseline feed, and then determine visually what a single cap change in an amp truly does, OJ with pulp or something closer to Tang.

In the end I, of course, want to trust my ears. But this level of investigation could be both interesting and beneficial for a more uniform and descriptive set of terms.

I intend to try some of this as I learn the RMAA software but would love to see some data in the form of the attached graph style produced by pro lab level equipment - again reporting the change of a single cap.

Though tightly related, this might be somewhat redundant and a topic for a different thread. All comments welcomed.
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Last edited by bcmbob; 24th May 2012 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 24th May 2012, 03:30 PM   #3955
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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I have no doubt that caps add coloration, and I have posted measured impedance comparisons in other threads which I do not wish to parrot here. Caps sound different mainly due to the way it charges/discharges, the way current flows, and how it couples with other parts of the circuit. Different caps will react differently under different drive current. What one can do is to understand what is going on in the circuit and try to make the most out of the average components available.

In an average chip amp that was being worked on in an active speaker, comments from a reviewer was that everything seemed pretty much on spot except there seemed to be a slight lack of high frequency, "I really wish you can fix that...". Efforts to tweak the frequency response were in vain; giving up and moving to other changes that were planned, but did not seem relevant to the issue, suddenly the slight lack of treble disappeared! I was with the same reviewer today, and when he listened to it, he smiled and said: "this is it, now I feel comfortable recommending it...".

Caps make a difference even on the mains power line filter depending on how the power supply interact with the mains.

The main difference is you gradually feel interactive emotion with most music played. It is hard to explain, but listening to something that sounds really good versus getting emotionally interactive are two different worlds. But don't expect getting more measurements from me unless you are prepared to show something meaningful as well. I have no intention of convincing anyone I am right, but believe in just sharing experiences.
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Old 24th May 2012, 05:40 PM   #3956
bcmbob is offline bcmbob  United States
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soongsc,

I certainly hope you don't think my comments were specifically pointed in your direction, they were not. I totally agree with all you say relating to "you gradually feel interactive emotion" - great description.

My question, stated differently, deals with descriptive terms representing whether caps "truly" add to the product that left the recording studio, or primarily filter what is already there, selectively due to their construction and implementation. I honestly didn't pay a lot of attention to the "why-how" of cap substitutions, and merely noted and enjoyed the results, till I got evolved in swapping a lot of them in the FE beta project. That stirred my curiosity to start thinking about "how" they do it.

I have no doubt your published information is valid and descriptive of your work. My questions/suppositions are at a more general level and maybe from up a thousand feet - how, in the search for the most minimally invasive path between the studio and my ears, do caps do what they do?

Again I may be going way off topic here and will heed Andrew T.'s often expressed answer - go to study hall and let us know what you have learned.
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Old 24th May 2012, 09:10 PM   #3957
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I removed today the 0.1uf BG NXhiQ from C7 and replaced them with 22nf FT1 russian teflons and it is quite an improvement. I havent done extensive listening, i only listened to 4-5 tracks from Ghost in the machine - Police but the improvement in resolution is clear. I must also comment on the fact that Bg NXhiQ is an amazing cap considering the fact that it is an electrolytic- it is worse than the teflon cap but not terribly worse
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Old 24th May 2012, 09:51 PM   #3958
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C7 caps are a nightmare...

No caps seems to sound completely right.

One has the soundstage but lacks body, the other has body but no detail, another has detail and body but no soundstage... and so on.

I'm going mad...

So I've tried a cap that sometimes can be most transparent bypass cap but usually sounds awful...

Fantastic!

99% of what a void C7 gives is there: soundstage, detail, body, musicality.

It sounds simply right.

Which cap is?

A plain X7R ceramic...

Oh No! I must change FE BOM another time...
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Old 24th May 2012, 10:11 PM   #3959
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hahahaha
Dario i can imagine you going nuts with all the cap swapping! You should take a brief brake. A plain ceramic X7R eh? Well one more cap to try i guess
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Old 24th May 2012, 10:18 PM   #3960
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skouliki View Post
hahahaha
Dario i can imagine you going nuts with all the cap swapping!


Yes, it's so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by skouliki View Post
You should take a brief brake. A plain ceramic X7R eh? Well one more cap to try i guess
We must see if tomorrow I'll find it still perfect.

Today the KP1830 seems too dry...

But for now this little 100nF X7R ceramic is refreshing. It makes me enjoy the music.
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