On a dutch audioforum hifi.nl a review of the 47 labs 4717 integrated amp was posted today, including some pictures of the inside. It made me wonder about the pictures of the gaincard internals that float over the net. If this diy-looking amp is the real thing, than the gaincard pictures might just as well be. 😉
Rob
Rob
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Aren't those pretty sloppy solders?
They don't look like nice textbook solders to me.
Maybe that's the secret to their great sound 😉
Does anyone know what they are saying in the review? The only thing I could make out was "Dire Straits" on page 2. I guess somethings are universal.
Cheers,
Bret Morrow
They don't look like nice textbook solders to me.
Maybe that's the secret to their great sound 😉
Does anyone know what they are saying in the review? The only thing I could make out was "Dire Straits" on page 2. I guess somethings are universal.
Cheers,
Bret Morrow
I wouldn't worry about solder joints😉
What I find interesting is that the pins on a chip support the whole PCB (including caps). Even more interesting is the way the chip is mounted. As you see the enclosure is thin sheet metal, yet there is no srews visible on the outside where chips are mounted. It seems like a piece of thicker material is attached to the walls and there, a proper thread for mounting screw is made.
But I like this design, very simple, yet functional.
What I find interesting is that the pins on a chip support the whole PCB (including caps). Even more interesting is the way the chip is mounted. As you see the enclosure is thin sheet metal, yet there is no srews visible on the outside where chips are mounted. It seems like a piece of thicker material is attached to the walls and there, a proper thread for mounting screw is made.
But I like this design, very simple, yet functional.
The reviewer is impressed, but the amp was much better with classical music than with pop/rock. So the amp is recommeded for people who listen to classical music 90% of the time. The lack of colouration in the mid-band didn't work out with pop. This is roughly the contents of the dutch text.
Taco said:
I wouldn't be surprised with that. The case introduces quite a lot of resonances. It's not that 47Labs want to get rid of them, it seems like they don't. Those resonances may actually improve the way one might perceive classical music, but with pop/rock it may sound like early versions of surround sound😉
Piece of overpriced cheap junk produced by even cheaper labor power.What a rip-off and marketing hype. 
.
I know, nobody forces anybody to buy it by the fret to his life but this kind of customer abuse makes one mad anyhow.
Shame on you Shigaraki san.
Argo
. I know, nobody forces anybody to buy it by the fret to his life but this kind of customer abuse makes one mad anyhow.
Shame on you Shigaraki san.
Argo
Translated article (conditionally speaking) here.
Greg, this is the amp:
http://www.sakurasystems.com/products/shigaamp.html
Greg, this is the amp:
http://www.sakurasystems.com/products/shigaamp.html
GregGC said:
The review is for Shigaraki which is "budget" version of gaincard. Those are two different products. Check sakurasystems.com for more info.
While I can't say I've turned on by the whole concept, if forced to choose I'd say the workmanship of Peter Daniel's unit is on a much higher plane. In either case the prices seem a tad much but at least PD seems to think you deserve something for for your money.
argo said:
Cheaper labor power? Far as I'm aware Kimura San makes them there in Japan (he may even be making them all himself , where labor is hardly cheap. At least compared to mainland China and other places.
se
The wires for power seem a bit too thin.
I wish we could see how the feedback resistor is attached. Is it on the back of the board?
Interesting that they don't use a circuit board.
I wish we could see how the feedback resistor is attached. Is it on the back of the board?
Interesting that they don't use a circuit board.
the left pic is the back of the chip-board, but hard to tell where the feedback resistor is.
Rob
Rob
Steve Eddy said:
Then he must hate his job or his customers or himself or all of the mentioned together. But maybe he just doesn’t pay enough to himself. Anyway it’s very poor job
I just love these generalisations! Classical music? What is that? A piano solo or a full orchestra?
What I have found is that with acoustic music, a passively driven amplifier can more accurately portay the nuances of the instrument(s) than an active system with more components in the signal path.
But for music that requires more oomph (for want of a better word), an actively driven amplifier does the job better than the passive.
So if the reviewer in this case was using 'classical' to describe a string quartet or solo piece (rather than a full symphony orchestra) then I am not surprised at their findings. 😉
My experience has been that amplifiers can't tell the difference between Scarlatti and Snoop-Doggy-Dog. They can, sometimes, find their limits stretched by signal level (peak vs. average) and may or may not have enough current to deal with some spectral content. All this is highly mitigated by the speakers. This may lead to some perception that there are performance differences in classical vs. pop and there may be a basis for that depending on which pop or classical one listens to. A string quartet vs. Pink Floyd full blast is one comparrision while Saint-Saens Sym No.3 vs. The Best of the Mammas and the Poppas is quite another comparrison
The construction of the amp is indeed quite interesting. That is how it looks to me:
Both channels are screwed to an internal stronger aluminium frame which is also firmly mounted to the damped base board. This also supports the front and the back panels inside mounting boards. The thin metal case is merely put "over" the whole assembly with very limited connections (only screws at the back side). The case also has additional holes for air circulation. This construction does not seem to be very vibration sensitive to me.
It is not visible if the fader pot is connected in the normal or in the shunt mode.
Besides of having only the provision for one set of supply voltages, the shagiraki amp seems to have an extra cap in the feedback path (the smaller one between the psu caps) unlike and a zobel like its elder brother. Same values of the resistors, you can see the 22k input resistor and one (very right) 680R feedback resistor. Star earthing is used with one star ground per channel only connected together at the supply like splitter.
The amp uses the same isolated chips, screwed to the frame with smaller supporting metal plates.
The transformer looks very small, it is difficult to say anything about the quality. The same grey diodes are used for the bridge (5A fast soft recovery, General Semiconductors FE5A). And no caps or snubbers.
Wires are thin, but solid core (the way how the are bended) with good isolation (except the psu wires).
Although it looks a bit cheap inside at first glance, I think it is quite clever made, everything is well thought over.
Do you guys really think you can hear if the soldering work also looks like it is done by hand?
If the amp is sounding good and you think you have got the sound what you have paid for - well what is the problem? If we DIYers can do everything better, than let us do it, instead of complaining about cheap workmanship and ripoff prices.
Klaus
Both channels are screwed to an internal stronger aluminium frame which is also firmly mounted to the damped base board. This also supports the front and the back panels inside mounting boards. The thin metal case is merely put "over" the whole assembly with very limited connections (only screws at the back side). The case also has additional holes for air circulation. This construction does not seem to be very vibration sensitive to me.
It is not visible if the fader pot is connected in the normal or in the shunt mode.
Besides of having only the provision for one set of supply voltages, the shagiraki amp seems to have an extra cap in the feedback path (the smaller one between the psu caps) unlike and a zobel like its elder brother. Same values of the resistors, you can see the 22k input resistor and one (very right) 680R feedback resistor. Star earthing is used with one star ground per channel only connected together at the supply like splitter.
The amp uses the same isolated chips, screwed to the frame with smaller supporting metal plates.
The transformer looks very small, it is difficult to say anything about the quality. The same grey diodes are used for the bridge (5A fast soft recovery, General Semiconductors FE5A). And no caps or snubbers.
Wires are thin, but solid core (the way how the are bended) with good isolation (except the psu wires).
Although it looks a bit cheap inside at first glance, I think it is quite clever made, everything is well thought over.
Do you guys really think you can hear if the soldering work also looks like it is done by hand?
If the amp is sounding good and you think you have got the sound what you have paid for - well what is the problem? If we DIYers can do everything better, than let us do it, instead of complaining about cheap workmanship and ripoff prices.
Klaus
Chip in the 4717
I had a chance to talk to Yoshi Segoshi, US distributor for 47 Labs, briefly at the 2002 THE Show in NYC.
When I asked him what the differences between the Gaincard and the Shigiraki were, he mentioned that the 4717 used a different chip that sounded smoother and easier on the ear than that of the Gaincard. Therefore, some people found the 4717 more listenable.
He didn't mention the chip specifically, but based on what I've read on the forums, sounds like it may be the LM1875. If you can see it in the photos, well, there you go....
Best,
KT
I had a chance to talk to Yoshi Segoshi, US distributor for 47 Labs, briefly at the 2002 THE Show in NYC.
When I asked him what the differences between the Gaincard and the Shigiraki were, he mentioned that the 4717 used a different chip that sounded smoother and easier on the ear than that of the Gaincard. Therefore, some people found the 4717 more listenable.
He didn't mention the chip specifically, but based on what I've read on the forums, sounds like it may be the LM1875. If you can see it in the photos, well, there you go....
Best,
KT
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