internals 47 labs 4717 integrated

[carlosfm]

Originally posted by 2Bak

SakuraSystem was the first company who made amplifiers with opamps successfully, were they not?

Of course not.

And, before this Gaincard/clone movement, and before having even seen a review of a Gaincard, I listened to that on a hi-fi dealer in Cascais.
This was some years ago and it was presented to me as a "new japanese high-end manufacturer".
I though those very thin wires were very curious, but I actually liked the sound of the Gaincard.
That's not in question here.
What's in question is if a manufacturer can ask huge amounts of money by a product like this.
Externally the boxes are ok, but internaly what a mess!

A friend of mine some years ago said to me that high-end costs what it sounds, independently of being cheap or expensive to make.
I found it hard to believe at that time, but as time goes by I learned that he's right.
I could make a cheap passive pre with just a good pot inside and ask 10,000 Euros for that.
Sounds good, doesn't it?
So it deserves the money.

[lohk]

I - although not involved with 47labs - slowly get angry with some of the reactions/prejudiced non-reactions in this thread:

Cheap design?
In very many preamps the signal passes two switches:
1: the input selector
2. the tape/source selector
What is the problem here?

The amp output is often routed via a small relais: Better than a switch?

Thin cables?
Thin solid core, specially for shorter lenghth, can sound better than any other cable. It can also be a part of the design if the resistance is low (like the discussed output resistor).

Cheap fader?
Where do you see that?

Everything for 100$?
Why not, considered the profit margins, storage costs etc. If you do not like a painting do you calculate the cost of the oil color and the canvas instead and blame the artist for beeing "too expensive"?

Pre historic radio?
If this would be a tube amp, nobody would argue.

Stripped caps?
Although I never tried that, there are well respected members in this forum who do the same with very good results.

Non-shielded wires?
No comment. (In a well shielded case? ...)


I tend to admire this design even more. It is more like a piece of art, done by hand in an individual manner.
Again: If you do not like it and the way how it sounds, do not buy it. If you have troubles with the way how it looks from inside, do not open the case.
Whats the matter with some of you guys, are you jealous?


ps: The red cap underneath the board is - by size - the Zobel cap (WIMA).

[Magura]

I tend to agree with Carlos.

Wonder when bad soldered joints became art?? I sure would be unhappy if I had to put my name on something sporting that low quality craftmanship.



Magura

[carlosfm]

Originally posted by lohk

Non-shielded wires?
No comment. (In a well shielded case? ...)

And the rest of what's inside the case?
No comment.

[carlosfm]

Originally posted by Magura
I sure would be unhappy if I had to put my name on something sporting that low quality craftmanship.
Magura

And that cap floating under the circuit?
Without jacket too.

[sam9]

" 'Best results were indeed with string quartets, Locatelli, Vivaldi, Händel, but.... also Dire Straits worked out very nicely. '


"Hmm, sounds like an undersize PSU causing dynamic range limitation to me "

Exactly. I don't think connecting it to my Magges and putting on Toccata & Fuge in D would be a good idea . . .

[moamps]

Originally posted by lohk
Cheap fader?
Where do you see that?

Hi,
this pot looks like that on picture below. This is a low budget ALPS pot very often installed in small budget audio consoles.
In 2000€ amp I expect something better (like this one: http://www.pennyandgiles.com/docGallery/76.PDF or similar)

Regards

[sam9]

"SakuraSystem was the first company who made amplifiers with opamps successfully, were they not? "

When did they first come on the market? I think Nohr also uses IC amps - when did they appear? Also it would not surprise me to find that IC amps appeared in the automotive market quite a bit sooner. Not to mention the amp section of boom boxes. I think it may be more accurate to say that Sakura is the first to charge over $500 for an IC amp.

[Peter Daniel]

I remember reading Stereophile review of $6,000 Nagra preamp and it was mentioned that cheap plastic pot was used because it sounded good.

Also, GBP12,000 Naim preamp seem to sport cheap Alps (motorized) pots. All those internal wiring doesn't look that great either

[ThorstenL]

Konnichiwa,

Originally posted by carlosfm
Even a cheap 100 Euro amp looks better than this.

Does it REALLY?

Okay, all components would be on one PCB (including switches, jacks and spring clip type wire connectors.

That would LOOK neat on the outside, but usually signal & ground routing is usually awful. You would be unlikely to see a LM1875 with symmetrical supplies but most likely a 12V Supply BTL Class B Stereo Chip. If you are lucky that will keep grounding problems to a minmum.

Certain of the difference between 47labs gear and most other commercial items which make for the look are deliberate.

Multiple small PCB's strung together with wire instead of one large PCB makes sense to me, for example. Hand soldering usually looks rarely as neat as flow soldered connections and usually makes much better connections. Small PCB's reduce the problems with vibrations and microphony.

I suspect fitting everything to a PCB conventional PCB would actually bring the effort required to make such an Amp way down. I am also almost certain Kimura San tried this first, after working with a hardwired prototype "birdsnest" and I suspect he discovere dthe simple truth - PCB's suck, sonically speaking. ;-)

One MAY argue about the "value for money" aspect of 47Lab's gear. One MAY do this for much of the High End gear sold through the usual Sales and Distribution Channels (I have some idea of dealers and distributors margins, which they BTW require to operate including the staging of Shows, the rent for the premesis and the demo stock etc.). Hence singeling 47labs out for a gripe over this seems unreasonable, if the rest of the industry is the same.

So, can we move on?

I think we now know pretty accuratly what is inside a Gaincard and Shigaraki, close enought that a very close clone should be easy, excepting the mains transformer issue, which I can assure you is critical for the sound. We know Voltages, values of passive, have good ideas about brands of most passives and know the execution of the designs. Many will also agree that few of the concepts found in GC are carried to the logical conclusion by 47labs.

So, how about we stop bashing 47labs, try to copy them and simply do our own thing, try more interesting things one can do with chip power amp's.

I for one would like to see someone make a minimalist "BiAmpliFiddler" design with LM3875 and a subtractive X-Over plus switchable suitable HF & LF EQ circuits with bridge Amp's for woofer and Tweeter to be used in activating the common 2-Way HiFi Speakers. Now for that a neat layout (grounding etc) and vestigal PCB would be great.

Or how about inverting Mode Bridge Amp's including active error canceling with layout and an input sensitivity matched to the Behringer DCX2496 Digital X-Over?

That wopuld be a great deal more constructive and helpfull to budding DIY'ers than endless 47labs bashing.

Sayonara