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Old 25th May 2004, 03:55 AM   #11
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Quote:
Originally posted by janneman
I suspect that here also, as everywhere in audio, psychological effects play a large role if not a dominating one.
Yes, and psychologically, we tend to think that expensive parts sound better.

I have plenty of expensive transformers that are still not used. The build is beautifull. And I'm an artist, in that I think audio is also an art. I like beautifull things (I used to use acrylic to cover my amps). It is bothering me that I love the "sound" of an ugly EI transformer from an old UPS while the beautifull $100 is sitting there unused.

Oh, the "best" sounding toroid I own is a toroid that is custom manufactured for NAD (made in Canada). "HOLMGREN" TRANSFORMER is written on it. I don't know what the hell is that
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Old 25th May 2004, 10:40 AM   #12
mAJORD is offline mAJORD  Australia
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very intersting topic,

something that interests me is the attittude that THD , signal-noise , and damping factor, among other measurments are considered useless by some audiophiles.....

if any of u are reading, perhaps u could state what other factors make an amp sound 'good' or 'bad' , and why they cant be measured..


something i thought myself was how music unlike a pure simple sinewave signal, consists of almost endles signals superimposed on eachother , and perhaps THD measurements couldnt take into acount how well a given amp could amplify such a complex signal without any impurities, especially when everything was sitting on top of a hefty low freqency bassline , but I am still learning so perhaps THJD measurments take this into account... or what im saying is irrelevent.. ? ? ?
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Old 25th May 2004, 10:47 AM   #13
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What you say is highly relevant. Most designers and researchers I have read or met agree that THD is just a rough indication of amp linearity. Much effort has been spend throughout the last decades to find a test that correlates with listening preferences. Two-tone intermodulation, is one of them, but for instance the AP systems contain provisions for doing 10 or more tone IM tests. Then there other tests mixing sinus and square wave (low pass filtered) to see how linear the sine is reproduced in the presence of large lf levels. As far as I am aware, progress has been made, but there is not yet a surefire test suite that correlates with listening preferences (under controlled conditions of course).

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Old 25th May 2004, 10:51 AM   #14
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"there is not yet a surefire test suite that correlates with listening preferences (under controlled conditions of course)."

Absolutely correct. Even after all amplifier parameters are tested, listening (and listener) preferences are added to the mix.
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Old 25th May 2004, 11:01 AM   #15
mAJORD is offline mAJORD  Australia
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thanks , that clears a few things up!.
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Old 25th May 2004, 02:26 PM   #16
CRFX is offline CRFX  United States
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I am interested to know what effect "better" caps have in the PS. When they are in the signel path "better" caps should have a noticible effect. But in a PS what differnence does it make? Do they make a smother dc voltage?
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Old 25th May 2004, 03:48 PM   #17
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Quote:
Originally posted by CRFX
I am interested to know what effect "better" caps have in the PS. When they are in the signel path "better" caps should have a noticible effect. But in a PS what differnence does it make? Do they make a smother dc voltage?
Many said that I’m a very technical person. But in audio, I am a different person. I can read all the theories on how caps work on DC (which I think I have), but what does it give???

One thing I taught myself is that in audio every parts work together in a very unique way. Trade-offs are things you will always encounter, so you must know what to trade and when. You may need a PS cap that have the smoothing ability, or you may want a transformer to do that for you (don’t ask me how) and let the cap to do other things such as serving the output transistor with current in bass passage when the toroid is so poor on this respect. But if your amp is tube you may want to forget that.

In PS, too smooth a DC (or very noise free) usually means a bad transient. A “good” cap is a cap that can do many thing so you don’t have difficulty with the trade-off. With “better” cap in PS I want a silent system but doesn’t harm the sonic. I will make sure that the relatively cheap rectifier does not function as the bottle-neck for this. I will make sure that the trafo is not underrated also.

Many fake capacitors have damaging effect on sound, but I haven’t found that exotic capacitor is justifiable (in term of increased performance per dollar). I can use thick wire for supplying the board and use a small Black Gate on the leg of the output transistor.

Oh, yes, if we think an audio signal path as tunnel of water, you’re right that in the signal path “better” caps should have a noticable effect. But there’s no such tunnel. That’s just an analogy to make things understandable. But you can expand the analogy to uh… multi-dimensional space where uh… forget it
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Old 25th May 2004, 04:15 PM   #18
sss is offline sss  Israel
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Quote:
Originally posted by mAJORD
something i thought myself was how music unlike a pure simple sinewave signal, consists of almost endles signals superimposed on eachother , and perhaps THD measurements couldnt take into acount how well a given amp could amplify such a complex signal without any impurities, especially when everything was sitting on top of a hefty low freqency bassline , but I am still learning so perhaps THJD measurments take this into account... or what im saying is irrelevent.. ? ? ?
THD stands for total harmonic distortion
the thing is that even the most complicated music signal is made of many simple pure sinewaves

but thats not all

lets say u got a power amp with a gain of 20 and u are measuring the thd at 1Khz freq and the thd at that freq is 1%
now u are doing the same test but under load conditions and the thd is still 1%

if the gain of that amp under load is only 10 the thd metter wount show nothing!! the thd remains 1% even if the signal is attenuated

hope that helps u to understand things better



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Old 25th May 2004, 06:25 PM   #19
CRFX is offline CRFX  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jay


Oh, yes, if we think an audio signal path as tunnel of water, you’re right that in the signal path “better” caps should have a noticable effect. But there’s no such tunnel. That’s just an analogy to make things understandable. But you can expand the analogy to uh… multi-dimensional space where uh… forget it
::scratches head::
probably shouldn't have read that right after work.
I'll just stick with some decent panasonics for now.
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Old 25th May 2004, 06:35 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jay
[snip]In PS, too smooth a DC (or very noise free) usually means a bad transient. [snip]

That's completely new for me! Can you explain this? Do you mean a smooth supply without load or under load?

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