In fashion niches, people believe things for reasons other than actual performance. The fashion-niche audiophile demand for Black Gate didn't exactly keep THAT in production. Many other "fashion" caps are just relabeled stuff- the fashion-niche audiophile market is miniscule.
Low ESR and high temp rated caps are useful in other industries, otherwise they wouldn't be around.
I found out this link http://jimmyauw.com/2007/03/15/inside-altec-mx5021/
the electrolytic caps have improved even the pc speakers to larger extent and guess what the guy even didnt see after burning time. So when it can improve even the basic pc speakers why cant. I dont think its fashion its material science. Some ready to pay that for that last 1%... Its not mathematics all the time on sound quality i believe..
the electrolytic caps have improved even the pc speakers to larger extent and guess what the guy even didnt see after burning time. So when it can improve even the basic pc speakers why cant. I dont think its fashion its material science. Some ready to pay that for that last 1%... Its not mathematics all the time on sound quality i believe..
do notice that the article writer did not just replace the powersupply capacitors.
would had been fair only and only if only one component was to be changed at a time.
Without mesurements its all infected with personal emotion. No comparism based on that will ever be suitable, expect for the writer him/her self.
And it IS mathematics all the way. Unlike humans, electrons and pressure waves do respect laws of physics. Those are described to us by mathematics.
bcmbob, what i propose is common practice for DIY ers in the high voltage fun area.
Verry high voltage capacitors for tesla coils are hard to obtain and expensive.
In audio use, one can go for a folded, instead of rolled design. This will have a small inductance.
(reason why a correctly choosen dc blocking capacitor on an amplifier's input will lead to better mid/high response)
I digg You a link. Do consider that a home made capacitor will be large.
Actually I can roll a cap, and mesure it. Aluminium foil and say.. baking paper are easy to obtain.
I do not remember what capacitance i got from rolling my own.
Roll your own capacitors - Hack a Day
link shows a verry small one.
If i have a bit of time today i will roll You a capacitor and take some photos, and mesure what i got. Depends if my multimeter is working
would had been fair only and only if only one component was to be changed at a time.
Without mesurements its all infected with personal emotion. No comparism based on that will ever be suitable, expect for the writer him/her self.
And it IS mathematics all the way. Unlike humans, electrons and pressure waves do respect laws of physics. Those are described to us by mathematics.
bcmbob, what i propose is common practice for DIY ers in the high voltage fun area.
Verry high voltage capacitors for tesla coils are hard to obtain and expensive.
In audio use, one can go for a folded, instead of rolled design. This will have a small inductance.
(reason why a correctly choosen dc blocking capacitor on an amplifier's input will lead to better mid/high response)
I digg You a link. Do consider that a home made capacitor will be large.
Actually I can roll a cap, and mesure it. Aluminium foil and say.. baking paper are easy to obtain.
I do not remember what capacitance i got from rolling my own.
Roll your own capacitors - Hack a Day
link shows a verry small one.
If i have a bit of time today i will roll You a capacitor and take some photos, and mesure what i got. Depends if my multimeter is working
is it possible to express mathematically the quality of sound I am waiting for an equation which gives me the result of sound quality.
capxcon 220uf 50v in the signal path
Blackgate FK 220uf 50v in the signal path
can you put me an equation where i can measure which is best in sound quality? if possible I will go with it..
capxcon 220uf 50v in the signal path
Blackgate FK 220uf 50v in the signal path
can you put me an equation where i can measure which is best in sound quality? if possible I will go with it..
humans are subject to psychoacoustics not just the electromagnetic laws of physics. so, although the equation for the capacitor is I=Cx dV/dt, its knowledge and application is not sufficient by itself to assure of a good sound reproduction to our ears. although knowledge of the mathematical physics behind electronics is not sufficient by itself to secure an audiophile's desired outcome, it is, however, necessary! empiricism and subjective emotion will create more problems and discrepancies and make one actually chase ghosts.
simulations are purely "mathematics"
These simulations require "models" to allow predictions on performance.
A poor model is very likely to result in a poor prediction.
A poor prediction is NOT due to poor nor bad mathematics.
Improve the "models" and the predictions become more accurate.
Capacitors and cables can be modeled.
Good models for capacitors and/or cables will give better predictions for the system performance that using "non models" (a non model effectively ignores all the parasitics).
I would contend that a knowledgeable designer can use a simulator to predict performance and with knowledgeable interpretations of the answers to his/her questions, infer the "sound quality" that the system is capable of.
That assertion would be that mathematics does and can predict sound quality !
These simulations require "models" to allow predictions on performance.
A poor model is very likely to result in a poor prediction.
A poor prediction is NOT due to poor nor bad mathematics.
Improve the "models" and the predictions become more accurate.
Capacitors and cables can be modeled.
Good models for capacitors and/or cables will give better predictions for the system performance that using "non models" (a non model effectively ignores all the parasitics).
I would contend that a knowledgeable designer can use a simulator to predict performance and with knowledgeable interpretations of the answers to his/her questions, infer the "sound quality" that the system is capable of.
That assertion would be that mathematics does and can predict sound quality !
Last edited:
O.K., now i suspect this is really going to expose me to a level of ridicule and claims of absolute folly - but I got my back to the wall, my mask on and a giant catcher's mitt.
I'm claiming that not only does the base material and construction technique of a cap actually influence the sound of a circuit, its actual rotation in that circuit has a significant impact on the character and quality of the amplifier containing that cap/resistor.
WHAT!!!!!! Bob is now a confirmed absolute moron.
"But Wait There's More"
Such balderdash was completely rejected by me till a few months ago. Dario Insrra has developed a new version of the MyRef power amp. It was proposed that the rotation of both caps and resistors influence what one hears. I and several others naively took up the challenge and installed sockets on the beta boards that would facilitate both swapping brands/types as well as the dance of the twirl. Some with earlier versions (V1.2 & V1.3) also suspended their disbelief and stuck their toes in the water.
In an attempt to introduce a semi-scientific platform I created a simple test mix for all auditions.
The entire system was held stable (don't touch that volume pot!) and the only change was one cap or resistor at a time. I invite all to read about the results starting here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/chip...on-beta-build-fine-tuning-51.html#post3029349
I would imagine one of the first criticisms of this process is that minute differences in components actually change/influence the operation of associated elements within the amp and what one hears is more than the result of the cap/resistor itself. For me - so be it. I'm only interested in the timbre of the tympani, the slam of the bass or the splash of the cymbal when it reaches my ears.
Most of the 20 plus RC version builders have purchased sockets and by sheer numbers will confirm or refute the validity of the claims made herein.
O.K., I just finished rereading the autobiography of Yogi Barra and I got my stance down in the ready.
I'm claiming that not only does the base material and construction technique of a cap actually influence the sound of a circuit, its actual rotation in that circuit has a significant impact on the character and quality of the amplifier containing that cap/resistor.
WHAT!!!!!!
Bob is now a confirmed absolute moron."But Wait There's More"
Such balderdash was completely rejected by me till a few months ago. Dario Insrra has developed a new version of the MyRef power amp. It was proposed that the rotation of both caps and resistors influence what one hears. I and several others naively took up the challenge and installed sockets on the beta boards that would facilitate both swapping brands/types as well as the dance of the twirl. Some with earlier versions (V1.2 & V1.3) also suspended their disbelief and stuck their toes in the water.
In an attempt to introduce a semi-scientific platform I created a simple test mix for all auditions.
The entire system was held stable (don't touch that volume pot!) and the only change was one cap or resistor at a time. I invite all to read about the results starting here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/chip...on-beta-build-fine-tuning-51.html#post3029349
I would imagine one of the first criticisms of this process is that minute differences in components actually change/influence the operation of associated elements within the amp and what one hears is more than the result of the cap/resistor itself. For me - so be it. I'm only interested in the timbre of the tympani, the slam of the bass or the splash of the cymbal when it reaches my ears.
Most of the 20 plus RC version builders have purchased sockets and by sheer numbers will confirm or refute the validity of the claims made herein.
O.K., I just finished rereading the autobiography of Yogi Barra and I got my stance down in the ready.
Last edited:
Ridicule can be eliminated by having actual evidence. Otherwise... eh. No evidence, the claims have all the weight of UFO abductees or spoon bending by ESP.
When you can show that you hear these amazing things which contradict well-established engineering and physics by controlling for psychology (i.e., ears only, no peeking), you'll have something. I'll put my bets on this being an artifact of you having a human brain, not that physics is wrong.
When you can show that you hear these amazing things which contradict well-established engineering and physics by controlling for psychology (i.e., ears only, no peeking), you'll have something. I'll put my bets on this being an artifact of you having a human brain, not that physics is wrong.
Man, I keep buying those lotto tickets so I can set up a leading edged lab but the UFO people I talk to haven't yet passed on the secret to manipulation of the ticket selection process. What more can be asked of a guy with a VOM, a Radio Shack audio meter, some solder and a pair of aging ears?
I did say semi-scientific in the description
What more can be asked of a guy with a VOM, a Radio Shack audio meter, some solder and a pair of aging ears?I did say semi-scientific in the description
Last edited:
All it takes is ears, perhaps an assistant, and a willingness to put your beliefs to the test (and the accept the results). No particular equipment. There are a lot of good resources on how to set up controlled (ears-only) listening tests- I'll plug my article in Linear Audio as a good practical guide, but there's a lot of other folks covering that ground.
"Scientific" is like "pregnant" - there is no "semi."
"Scientific" is like "pregnant" - there is no "semi."
Look, I'm a measurement geek, so you get a measurement answer!
If two parts result in different sound, be it capacitors, resistors, wires or whatever, I absolutely guarantee the parts are different in some measurable way. Further, it will be a way that someone reasonably well equipped for passive component measurements can measure without great difficulty.
Being polite, I won't put this in all caps- There is no as-yet-undiscovered "factor X" that affects sound but can't be identified or measured.
There is one thing needed to ferret out what matters and what doesn't, and that's dogged perseverance!
It may only matter to some whether the cymbals sound right, but if you're a designer you have to know why in order to make forward progress rather than go in circles. And, if you're into DIY, you're the designer, like it or not. IMO, until the why is discovered, no real knowledge is had. The why is also where a lot of the fun is.
If two parts result in different sound, be it capacitors, resistors, wires or whatever, I absolutely guarantee the parts are different in some measurable way. Further, it will be a way that someone reasonably well equipped for passive component measurements can measure without great difficulty.
Being polite, I won't put this in all caps- There is no as-yet-undiscovered "factor X" that affects sound but can't be identified or measured.
There is one thing needed to ferret out what matters and what doesn't, and that's dogged perseverance!
It may only matter to some whether the cymbals sound right, but if you're a designer you have to know why in order to make forward progress rather than go in circles. And, if you're into DIY, you're the designer, like it or not. IMO, until the why is discovered, no real knowledge is had. The why is also where a lot of the fun is.
Last edited:
Hi Conrad, thans for answering
I completely agree but I can't see how this can answer my question to SY...
I don't have enough knowledge on measurements to agree or disagree but if a multimeter or an oscilloscope would be enough this sort of questions would never existed...
Again, who ever said that?
Last edited:
Hi Conrad,
Let me assure you, I am nowhere near a designer. I would describe myself as a kit assembler/end user with a love of music who stands in awe of all with the background and understanding to come up with these little gems.
As such and from that point of view, though I do stand by the simple reports of the acoustic impressions I receive in my auditions, I as much as anyone am anxious to hear about the results from others in the FE project - within those twenty or so people some do indeed have access to very sophisticated test equipment.
And I couldn't agree with you more, no matter what conclusion are gathered the whole thing is a whole lot of fun with the added bonus of some pretty remarkable sonic experiences.
BTW: The UFO people I talk to are actually more of a bluish tone - no grays yet.
Let me assure you, I am nowhere near a designer. I would describe myself as a kit assembler/end user with a love of music who stands in awe of all with the background and understanding to come up with these little gems.
As such and from that point of view, though I do stand by the simple reports of the acoustic impressions I receive in my auditions, I as much as anyone am anxious to hear about the results from others in the FE project - within those twenty or so people some do indeed have access to very sophisticated test equipment.
And I couldn't agree with you more, no matter what conclusion are gathered the whole thing is a whole lot of fun with the added bonus of some pretty remarkable sonic experiences.
BTW: The UFO people I talk to are actually more of a bluish tone - no grays yet.
Last edited:
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.