Component Swaps
Today, I finally had time to do a few comparisons of C9 and C13 on the FE RC boards. I was worried that my ears or my system wouldn't be sensitive enough to hear the difference between two capacitors, but I was surprised how clear and repeatable the differences were.
Please note that these are only my personal opinions and they are also dependent on my system. I'll remind everyone that my FE's don't get much signal below 100 Hz as my subwoofer handles that.
C13, input DC coupling cap
I had three different options to try, the K71-4 Russian styrene caps, K75-10 Russian Hybrid caps, and the regular Sonicaps. A word about the K75-10 caps. They are a combination of a polymer mixed in with paper in a "paper in oil" cap. They were originally recommended by a DIYer on the solid state forum.
I had played the K75-10 for the previous week as part of my burn-in. Overall, they are a pretty nice cap with nice detail. It is only in comparison to the K71-4 that they don't measure up. The K71-4 caps have amazing detail and dynamic response. They have very clear attack transients (the initial pluck of a string, the stick on the drum, etc). Their image is large, wide, and clear. Although the K75-10 sounded good initially, when compared directly with the K71-4, they sounded a little veiled with a smaller image. Since the 2 Russian caps are both reasonably priced, I don't have a reason to use the K75-10s. I guess the K75s are headed to the parts for sale department.
The Sonicaps are quite interesting. Bob called them musical and I think that does fit. They seem to have a full and round sound that emphasizes the bass. Although not as detailed as either Russian cap, they are quite clear. The image is smaller than K71-4 and it is harder to hear soft, background parts of the music. In the end, I would completely understand Sonicaps as a C13 choice, but for me, its the K71-4s.
C9 - Black Gate Comparison
I ran out of time, but so far, I have a good comparison of Black Gate STD and PK. As you may have read earlier, the PK's are available from PartsConnexion but have the downside of rating only 4 Volts. They will work in C9, but you better check the amp for stable performance before soldering these babies in.
For me, it turns out that the STD .vs. PK was the biggest difference in sound quality. The STD are OK, but the PK's have such great detail, image clarity, image width and depth, that the STD's almost sound muddy by comparison. I always figured that I would end up with the PK's, once the FK and N options became unobtainable. I still have my little Niobium experiment and Soonsc's NP caps to try, but I think I'll probably end up with the PK's.
Good luck and good listening to others who are building or experimenting.
Jac
Today, I finally had time to do a few comparisons of C9 and C13 on the FE RC boards. I was worried that my ears or my system wouldn't be sensitive enough to hear the difference between two capacitors, but I was surprised how clear and repeatable the differences were.
Please note that these are only my personal opinions and they are also dependent on my system. I'll remind everyone that my FE's don't get much signal below 100 Hz as my subwoofer handles that.
C13, input DC coupling cap
I had three different options to try, the K71-4 Russian styrene caps, K75-10 Russian Hybrid caps, and the regular Sonicaps. A word about the K75-10 caps. They are a combination of a polymer mixed in with paper in a "paper in oil" cap. They were originally recommended by a DIYer on the solid state forum.
I had played the K75-10 for the previous week as part of my burn-in. Overall, they are a pretty nice cap with nice detail. It is only in comparison to the K71-4 that they don't measure up. The K71-4 caps have amazing detail and dynamic response. They have very clear attack transients (the initial pluck of a string, the stick on the drum, etc). Their image is large, wide, and clear. Although the K75-10 sounded good initially, when compared directly with the K71-4, they sounded a little veiled with a smaller image. Since the 2 Russian caps are both reasonably priced, I don't have a reason to use the K75-10s. I guess the K75s are headed to the parts for sale department.
The Sonicaps are quite interesting. Bob called them musical and I think that does fit. They seem to have a full and round sound that emphasizes the bass. Although not as detailed as either Russian cap, they are quite clear. The image is smaller than K71-4 and it is harder to hear soft, background parts of the music. In the end, I would completely understand Sonicaps as a C13 choice, but for me, its the K71-4s.
C9 - Black Gate Comparison
I ran out of time, but so far, I have a good comparison of Black Gate STD and PK. As you may have read earlier, the PK's are available from PartsConnexion but have the downside of rating only 4 Volts. They will work in C9, but you better check the amp for stable performance before soldering these babies in.
For me, it turns out that the STD .vs. PK was the biggest difference in sound quality. The STD are OK, but the PK's have such great detail, image clarity, image width and depth, that the STD's almost sound muddy by comparison. I always figured that I would end up with the PK's, once the FK and N options became unobtainable. I still have my little Niobium experiment and Soonsc's NP caps to try, but I think I'll probably end up with the PK's.
Good luck and good listening to others who are building or experimenting.
Jac
I am very pleased to have just finished 'mounting' the SMD bits...
I was dreading it but it went OK
Hi Bill,
I'm happy to hear your build is going on
Didn't said you the SMD soldering wasn't so terrible...
Yes, they are.
I can't really understand how someone could think these differences are tricks of mind...
Informative report Jac. Can I ask what you used as hookup wire for your inlets and outs? I'm leaning toward the use of some silver for brightness, at the expense of a little copper warmth. I think there can be some juggling to get an effective blend of wire and caps.
I'm also giving thought to trying a pair of the new PE Audyns.
I'm also giving thought to trying a pair of the new PE Audyns.
@Bob
My hook-ups are currently nothing fancy. Just generic, copper core. I think my speaker wire is just 14 gauge copper lamp cord.
Dario,
I feel the need to congratulate you again on your very nice Fremen Edition amp. It is among the nicest amps I've heard. Note that I don't qualify this as a chip amp, just a very nice sounding amp that I am enjoying immensely.
Jac
My hook-ups are currently nothing fancy. Just generic, copper core. I think my speaker wire is just 14 gauge copper lamp cord.
Dario,
I feel the need to congratulate you again on your very nice Fremen Edition amp. It is among the nicest amps I've heard. Note that I don't qualify this as a chip amp, just a very nice sounding amp that I am enjoying immensely.
Jac
MyREf FE almost completed
Hi,
I have almost completed my MyRef FE. I lam not able to upload pictures. I will try to do it in some other way. I have to order for R-Core to complete it. I have 2 spare talema toroids, rating
Primary 230V
Secondary 2*25V
Can I try this in FE?
And please suggest me a good and some what cheap IEC socket.
Thanks
Badri
Hi,
I have almost completed my MyRef FE. I lam not able to upload pictures. I will try to do it in some other way. I have to order for R-Core to complete it. I have 2 spare talema toroids, rating
Primary 230V
Secondary 2*25V
Can I try this in FE?
And please suggest me a good and some what cheap IEC socket.
Thanks
Badri
Hi Badri,
sure, they will work perfectly with 8Ohm speakers.
But with your MA speakers you will have, probably, same problems you had wirh RevC.
It seems I must be sorry of being sorry...
After further experimenting I now think that the tutorial original orientation is the best one.
This is just a warning that things can change, I'm waiting Bob's confirmation on this.
Builders that have working amps could experiment and report, any opinion is welcome and appreciated.
R-11 Review.
Another big surprise. Reversing the resistor reduces the heft of the sound but the advantage gained in clarity and stage is well worth the trade-off, from what I'm hearing. The stage is the most impressive as it is improved both in width and specially depth. Much more of the in room 3D ambiance comes through. I hear a significant addition of space between the instruments and a better focus of voices - both solo and group. I would call the build guide position as stronger, but muddy in comparison to reversing the orientation. I haven't tried any heavy classical music yet but will do so this week. These results were based on the original test mix I did on the beta thread.
A few days ago I also compared the Black Gate Std against the F series. The Std is more precise and favors the high end. I would call it clean and analytical when compared to the F caps. The F produces more heft across the spectrum while maintaining (and maybe improving on) the separation between instruments and voices. It is like slightly raising 80 - 90 percent of the pots on a 16 ch equalizer - nothing drastic - just a bit more color to what is already there. This is only a comparison between two Black Gate caps and I will be interested in the results produced by other builders using other brands. For me the F caps are staying in.
There have been enough swaps and substitutions by me that I honestly can't zero in on an exact comparison between the beta and RC PCBs. In general I would claim the RC produces a cleaner or softer sound. If Dario was trying to resolve some of the high end edginess often reported of the LM3886, I would call it a noticeably successful design change.
Another big surprise. Reversing the resistor reduces the heft of the sound but the advantage gained in clarity and stage is well worth the trade-off, from what I'm hearing. The stage is the most impressive as it is improved both in width and specially depth. Much more of the in room 3D ambiance comes through. I hear a significant addition of space between the instruments and a better focus of voices - both solo and group. I would call the build guide position as stronger, but muddy in comparison to reversing the orientation. I haven't tried any heavy classical music yet but will do so this week. These results were based on the original test mix I did on the beta thread.
A few days ago I also compared the Black Gate Std against the F series. The Std is more precise and favors the high end. I would call it clean and analytical when compared to the F caps. The F produces more heft across the spectrum while maintaining (and maybe improving on) the separation between instruments and voices. It is like slightly raising 80 - 90 percent of the pots on a 16 ch equalizer - nothing drastic - just a bit more color to what is already there. This is only a comparison between two Black Gate caps and I will be interested in the results produced by other builders using other brands. For me the F caps are staying in.
There have been enough swaps and substitutions by me that I honestly can't zero in on an exact comparison between the beta and RC PCBs. In general I would claim the RC produces a cleaner or softer sound. If Dario was trying to resolve some of the high end edginess often reported of the LM3886, I would call it a noticeably successful design change.
If I confused anyone this is what I have now. The more I listen the more I like the stage and balance. I can hear sounds resolving both inside instruments/voices as well as behind my head in the room. This may again be one of those personal preference decisions, but I am still dumbfounded by how much such a simple twirl of a component can effect the sound.
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Caps, Volume????
Hey Bob,
Are you using the "alternate C9, R10 orientation?" I thought you preferred the original.
Dario, other experts,
Have you noticed any change in sound volume when you change C9? I am hearing differences between caps, but I'm not totally sure the differences are not due to volume, even though I haven't changed anything except the caps.
If I understand this correctly, two different caps with different ESR's might have an effect on the feedback loop gain, even well above the corner frequency of the C9, R10 filter. That might explain an overall change in sound volume due to changing caps at C9. Is this reasonable, or have I been playing too long and fooled myself.
Jac
Hey Bob,
Are you using the "alternate C9, R10 orientation?" I thought you preferred the original.
Dario, other experts,
Have you noticed any change in sound volume when you change C9? I am hearing differences between caps, but I'm not totally sure the differences are not due to volume, even though I haven't changed anything except the caps.
If I understand this correctly, two different caps with different ESR's might have an effect on the feedback loop gain, even well above the corner frequency of the C9, R10 filter. That might explain an overall change in sound volume due to changing caps at C9. Is this reasonable, or have I been playing too long and fooled myself.
Jac
Jac,
The world was much easier to understand and predict before Dario exposed us to his "voodoo theories" I'll be the first to admit that one can truly become dizzy from all the swaps and rotations. On top of that there has to be some interaction both upstream and down between neighboring components. There appear to be almost endless possibilities, and only the summation of results from a majority of a larger number of builders will approach anything like "best" or "correct" IMHO.
Hey, it is indeed a fun and interesting ride .
The world was much easier to understand and predict before Dario exposed us to his "voodoo theories"
I'll be the first to admit that one can truly become dizzy from all the swaps and rotations. On top of that there has to be some interaction both upstream and down between neighboring components. There appear to be almost endless possibilities, and only the summation of results from a majority of a larger number of builders will approach anything like "best" or "correct" IMHO.Hey, it is indeed a fun and interesting ride .
Sure.
I think it's mainly perceveid loudness.
Caps with a bigger amount of bass will be perceived as louder sounding, IMHO.
These are signs that the wrong direction is used, IMHO.
In some aspects the 'wrong' direction could be be charming (3D soundstage, extreme focus, rock solid bass) but as time passes listenting fatigue, thin sound, hardness and harsness become unbearable.
All my directions selections followed such rule, the right direction is the less open/aggressive, fuller with less controlled bass.
It seems counterintuitive but it gave me best results.
Yes, I think it's so and most of the improvement is due to SMD Susumus and their orientation, IMHO.
A little detail on the R-11 dialog may be in order here. Several weeks ago Dario asked me to test the reverse orientation. He did it like a blindfold test by not giving a hint of what to expect. He first saw the impressions from the audition in my post along with everyone else. What we heard individually was remarkably similar. Whether those changes in the sound are beneficial over time, ex. ear fatigue, require more listening on my part.
IMO, the big take-away here is the continued validation of the orientation of components being almost as important as the selection of value and brand.
So I'm encouraging builders to take the time and extra effort to use as many sockets as is practical in order to gain first hand experience in "tuning" of the FR RC.
IMO, the big take-away here is the continued validation of the orientation of components being almost as important as the selection of value and brand.
So I'm encouraging builders to take the time and extra effort to use as many sockets as is practical in order to gain first hand experience in "tuning" of the FR RC.
I don't know if you are pulling my leg with your reference to paint , but both the sockets and the extra lead lengths required for their use are things I am looking forward to eliminating. That probably won't happen till the final version though.
Socket users must also be very careful when filing leads to fit sockets. If looseness is discovered from an overshoot a quick light coating of solder (yes, that's another variable) will tighten the fit.
I think the beta pieces Dario did for his brother were socket free. Maybe he can report on the significance here.
, but both the sockets and the extra lead lengths required for their use are things I am looking forward to eliminating. That probably won't happen till the final version though.Socket users must also be very careful when filing leads to fit sockets. If looseness is discovered from an overshoot a quick light coating of solder (yes, that's another variable) will tighten the fit.
I think the beta pieces Dario did for his brother were socket free. Maybe he can report on the significance here.
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