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Old 11th November 2012, 10:54 AM   #701
bcmbob is offline bcmbob  United States
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My project for the day is removing all the sockets from my RC build. I still have that hum problem with sources other than the Mini DAC. I tried to solve it all day yesterday with no success. So All the do dads have to go. Dario did leave the vias under the in/out tabs and I'll do solid connections there. I did eliminate the C-13 fastons for the Sonicaps in the BLAT.

I also switched to screw terminals for signal in, as the pins inevitably loosen and cause problems. The pieces I bought have two stability dimples and might be suggested as a mod for the final version.
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Old 11th November 2012, 10:57 AM   #702
AndrewT is offline AndrewT  Scotland
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........................I was late to understanding the effect of cap orientation to sound. So I went back to check the orientation of some K75-10 Russian PIOs that I had tried in one direction only. Of course, the opposite orientation was better, so I let them burn in. .............
Would you complete the orientation testing and report the change in sound when after a month as they are, you put them back to the way they were and listen again.

That leaves you with three sets of results. Then decide which is preferred.

I wonder if your completed test might show that the best sound comes form swapping capacitors around every week, or every month, or every 24hrs?
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Old 11th November 2012, 11:14 AM   #703
bcmbob is offline bcmbob  United States
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Andrew, you have a good point - one I have considered myself. That is a long process that could/should be done once a builder finds a base preference for his or her ear/equipment. I do wonder though if you have actually experimented with cap rotation in one of your builds and can at least perceive the reported differences.
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Old 11th November 2012, 11:40 AM   #704
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Would you complete the orientation testing and report the change in sound when after a month as they are, you put them back to the way they were and listen again.

That leaves you with three sets of results. Then decide which is preferred.

I wonder if your completed test might show that the best sound comes form swapping capacitors around every week, or every month, or every 24hrs?
Andrew,

The trouble with a typed forum is that there are times when I can't tell the intended tone of a reply. In the case of your reply, I can imagine it as a straight suggestion or a little sarcastic. I'm going to choose straight as it brings an interesting question.

Just for reference, my "burn in" is 4 or 5 hours of playing an Isotek track which is supposed to accelerate the burn in process. I concede that there may be more burn in to come. So far, most of the character of a cap has stayed consistent from this point to a month or more of daily listening.

I am hearing component differences subjectively, but I admit that there is a bit of an objectivist in me that is always trying to explain the physics of what I am hearing. I have convinced myself that there are physical reasons for different materials and designs sounding different based on differences in impedance curves, etc. I think I understand that capacitors are partially chemical in function and that "burn in" is essentially letting those components stabilize.

I can even imagine that the orientation of a cap has a sound difference because the inner foil and outer foil have different path lengths and different inductance.

The question is would the orientation test have the same result after a month in the system? A fair question and worthy of a fair trial. Assuming there is more settling of the cap happening over a month, what might be the physics involved? Is it just that the stabilization of components through time may be the more important factor and that the difference heard early in the process may yield a different result after stabilization?

How do you "burn in" caps? Do you believe in burn in at all? Do you use a separate burn in device or in the actual intended device? Music or something else?

Jac
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Old 11th November 2012, 11:54 AM   #705
bcmbob is offline bcmbob  United States
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I wish I had tried the K71's or cheaper Audyn's before spending so much on the TC's. Oh well, this is not the first time I've spent too much money on something connected with audio.
Tom, I don't think buying the True Copper caps was a mistake. As I reported "...had I not owned the TCs.." is a valid qualifier. Those are still the caps to which all others should be compared - the gold standard - in my opinion. It's just nice to know builders can get remarkably close to that level of performance at quite significant savings. As things stand now the TCs will be pertinently installed in the final version when it becomes available.
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Old 11th November 2012, 12:10 PM   #706
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Tom, I don't think buying the True Copper caps was a mistake. As I reported "...had I not owned the TCs.." is a valid qualifier. Those are still the caps to which all others should be compared - the gold standard - in my opinion. It's just nice to know builders can get remarkably close to that level of performance at quite significant savings. As things stand now the TCs will be pertinently installed in the final version when it becomes available.
Bob,

That would be "the copper standard", wouldn't it?

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Old 11th November 2012, 12:17 PM   #707
bcmbob is offline bcmbob  United States
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hee, hee, hee

I stand corrected - but.... we are not that far away (assuming large Lotto winnings)

The Gold Standard.
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Old 11th November 2012, 12:48 PM   #708
bcmbob is offline bcmbob  United States
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OT Comment.

One of my very most favorite activities is ganging up on Andrew - whether he deserves it or not.

However, I must report that I got a detailed accounting as a response to my challenge to his racing chops. Let me tell you - he is/was the real deal and a serious mulit-competition champion driver and car designer. I won't post the details here as the communications were in a private format, but he has excelled in an area most of us contain only in our imaginings. Kudos Andrew. Your striving for perfection, accuracy and high performance standards, though sometimes a little gnawing and frustrating, have served you and your associates (us included) to great benefit.

Heartfelt thanks Andrew.

P.S. I still want a photo of Andrew helmet on - behind the wheel .
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Old 11th November 2012, 01:29 PM   #709
AndrewT is offline AndrewT  Scotland
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..............The trouble with a typed forum is that there are times when I can't tell the intended tone of a reply. In the case of your reply, I can imagine it as a straight suggestion or a little sarcastic. I'm going to choose straight as it brings an interesting question.
.................................The question is would the orientation test have the same result after a month in the system? A fair question and worthy of a fair trial. ....................................How do you "burn in" caps? Do you believe in burn in at all?................
Not sarcastic. A desire to see valid reporting.
Before / after / before is a fair test in my view.
I see reports that I cannot hear. Some are believable others I discard as impossible. A few if more thoroughly tested may show some science behind the "sound". Science will always be behind a difference, but which tests/reports do we subject to the science test?

You are right, I do not believe in "burn in", not for copper, nor for resistors, nor for capacitors.
I do believe that the manufacturer's specification of Reform immediately before testing their electrolytics must be for a real and objective reason.
I have reformed many, but not all, of my electrolytics before soldering into place. Why? because the leakage is enormous for electrolytics that are months old stock and even worse when years/decades old stock.
Orientation, yes. It is plausible scientifically. I have not heard it, but that does not stop it being possible. Test it fairly.
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Old 11th November 2012, 07:45 PM   #710
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Andrew,

Thanks for the clear and honest response. I will do my best to test it fairly.

This business of clear, repeatable subjective differences that are not easily measured or explained scientifically is a difficult subject. I see this in my day job all the time. The known measurements or simulations just don't predict a subjective result, but there it is, repeatable and useful. Of course, I always need some scientific plausibility behind it or I have trouble even considering it.

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