Got the Supreme caps yesterday so the auditions begin. 
My first impressions:
DCC is the cleanest, most musical and robust.
Supreme is close but a little less depth and color.
Audyn Plus sounds the most "filtered" and a tad less color/body. Still sounds accurate and detailed, but somewhat flat compared to the other two.
This doesn't mean a heck of a lot as the Supremes have zero burn-in time and no Isotek passes. Should have a better impression by the weekend. But it's nice to get started.
The True Coppers should be back shortly.
My first impressions:
DCC is the cleanest, most musical and robust.
Supreme is close but a little less depth and color.
Audyn Plus sounds the most "filtered" and a tad less color/body. Still sounds accurate and detailed, but somewhat flat compared to the other two.
This doesn't mean a heck of a lot as the Supremes have zero burn-in time and no Isotek passes. Should have a better impression by the weekend. But it's nice to get started.
The True Coppers should be back shortly.
Attachments
Hi Bob,
Just curious about your DC coupled experience. I have always heard that DC coupled is good for evaluating sound coloration of DC blocking caps, but that some amps don't actually sound their best in DC coupled configuration. That was my experience when I tried it on the FE more than 1 year ago. In your current evaluations, do you feel that DC coupled sounds the best or are you simply commenting on changes in sound introduced by the caps?
If you are still playing around, maybe you could try the FE's and various caps with both sets of speakers. I found that the cross-over improvements that I made to mine has influenced my perception of DC blocking caps, so you might find different/interesting effects between different speakers.
By the way, I have also been listening to Supreme C13's with the new crossover and they are very nice. More listening and comparing before I decide on any new C13 favorite though. Keep up the good work. I am looking forward to your results.
Jac
Just curious about your DC coupled experience. I have always heard that DC coupled is good for evaluating sound coloration of DC blocking caps, but that some amps don't actually sound their best in DC coupled configuration. That was my experience when I tried it on the FE more than 1 year ago. In your current evaluations, do you feel that DC coupled sounds the best or are you simply commenting on changes in sound introduced by the caps?
If you are still playing around, maybe you could try the FE's and various caps with both sets of speakers. I found that the cross-over improvements that I made to mine has influenced my perception of DC blocking caps, so you might find different/interesting effects between different speakers.
By the way, I have also been listening to Supreme C13's with the new crossover and they are very nice. More listening and comparing before I decide on any new C13 favorite though. Keep up the good work. I am looking forward to your results.
Jac
Agree 100%.
I have my amp DC coupled also because my Sansui preamp output is capacitor coupled so no need for a DC blocking stage.
Jac, you have to stop doing this. Mind reading is simply not allowed any more.
I'm waiting for the mailman to drop off a pair of 33 uF caps so I can finish the new Sunflower crossovers. I'm doing a modular approach with Euro screw terminals so I can switch components and review as I go. Top - tweeter sets, Bottom - Mids. The new 33 uFs replace the electos just to the left of the big red Audyns. The bass stays the same and will be mounted inside the cabinets prior to the testing. Started this almost a year ago but this should be the weekend.
Now for the Supremes - Don't have the TCs but after two passes of the burn-in tracks and about an hour of play, the sound spun me around and sat my behind down on the couch - with a great big grin.. The stage is absolutely enourmous, the bass sounds like a sub is running and the depth within instruments and seperation between them is remarkable. My speakers are ~ 7.5 feet apart and I'm consistently hearing things nearly a foot outside that space on either side.
Haven't had time to go back to direct coupling because I'm really enjoying the music - again. As I said, it's been a long time since I heard the TCs, but I can tell it will be a close competition. From memory I suspect the Supremes sound somewhat fuller/more colorful in the mids, and maybe a touch smoother on top. Don't know yet.
Look for more stuff probably Sunday.
*******
Just for fun - What I heard today:
Only MP3 but very full and dynamic - full spectrum as are all of Goodwin's arangements.
La Almeja Pequena
Attack of the Killer Trombones
One of Tom's favorite characteristics - can hear all the brass/glow in the ride cymbal and even hear differences in strikes from bell to rim - nice.
G Mulligan All-Stars
Will get deeper into HQ flac and classical stuff in the coming days.
Mind reading is simply not allowed any more. I'm waiting for the mailman to drop off a pair of 33 uF caps so I can finish the new Sunflower crossovers. I'm doing a modular approach with Euro screw terminals so I can switch components and review as I go. Top - tweeter sets, Bottom - Mids. The new 33 uFs replace the electos just to the left of the big red Audyns. The bass stays the same and will be mounted inside the cabinets prior to the testing. Started this almost a year ago but this should be the weekend.
Now for the Supremes - Don't have the TCs but after two passes of the burn-in tracks and about an hour of play, the sound spun me around and sat my behind down on the couch - with a great big grin.
. The stage is absolutely enourmous, the bass sounds like a sub is running and the depth within instruments and seperation between them is remarkable. My speakers are ~ 7.5 feet apart and I'm consistently hearing things nearly a foot outside that space on either side.Haven't had time to go back to direct coupling because I'm really enjoying the music - again. As I said, it's been a long time since I heard the TCs, but I can tell it will be a close competition. From memory I suspect the Supremes sound somewhat fuller/more colorful in the mids, and maybe a touch smoother on top. Don't know yet.
Look for more stuff probably Sunday.
*******
Just for fun - What I heard today:
Only MP3 but very full and dynamic - full spectrum as are all of Goodwin's arangements.
La Almeja Pequena
Attack of the Killer Trombones
One of Tom's favorite characteristics - can hear all the brass/glow in the ride cymbal and even hear differences in strikes from bell to rim - nice.
G Mulligan All-Stars
Will get deeper into HQ flac and classical stuff in the coming days.
Attachments
Jac, you have to stop doing this.
I'm waiting for the mailman to drop off a pair of 33 uF caps so I can finish the new Sunflower crossovers. I'm doing a modular approach with Euro screw terminals so I can switch components and review as I go. Top - tweeter sets, Bottom - Mids. The new 33 uFs replace the electos just to the left of the big red Audyns. The bass stays the same and will be mounted inside the cabinets prior to the testing. Started this almost a year ago but this should be the weekend.
Hi Bob,
Looks like you are going to have fun.
I look forward to your feedback on the Mundorf resistors. One of the biggest changes in my crossover was moving from an unknown metal oxide resistor to Caddock MK132s in the signal path of the tweeter. The Caddocks are a lot cleaner, but I have lost some of the top end sparkle. Make sure to evaluate the resistors separately from the caps and coils.
Also, check for a PM.
I do have a few Caddocks not shown in the photo. The big challenge will be to not do too much too fast - least I get lost between C13 changes and XO mods - 
Edit; Listening to Dario's "Your Latest Trick" - clean but less warmth than I remember on the TCs. Probably need much more time for burn-in.
Edit; Listening to Dario's "Your Latest Trick" - clean but less warmth than I remember on the TCs. Probably need much more time for burn-in.
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Those Audyn Plus should be Mundorf Supreme... I've had Plus on my center channel tweeter, when I swapped with Supreme I've had a not small improvement...
BTW you could try to bypass them with 10nF FKP2 100V or even better NOS axial ERO KP1832 (circa 10nf-20nf), you can find them from umut1001 and other vendors on eBay.
Those EROs are great to bypass lesser caps, also the ones in parallel to speakers (must be tried case by case), had great results in parallel on my midrange.
Just answered a PM from Jac saying the big red caps might be an overshoot on the mids also. He is sending some things to try, so once I get the test rig built I'll add some Supremes in the tweeter mix. Probably in a couple weeks. Thanks 
Way off topic - but this is what I'm working with. If anyone wants to comment a PM would probably be best.
Way off topic - but this is what I'm working with. If anyone wants to comment a PM would probably be best.
Attachments
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Q4 caps are not bad, good in parallel to woofer, could be fine in parallel to midrange but they will probably benefit from a good film/foil bypass like the EROs.
I would not use them in series,though.
Fine, I am looking forward to your results.
Thanks
You're welcome Bob.
I suspect that Dario is very correct here. Definitely try a bypass on the mid and woofer caps. In my limited experience, it can really help, but then sometimes it doesn't work too.
That is really an interesting notch filter that Paul put in series with the mids. A quick simulation shows that is 13.5 dB notch at 300 Hz. It is -6 dB from about 200 to 400 Hz. It looks like playing with the value of the 68 uF should be interesting. If I were you, I might try building the crossover without the 68 uF, 4 mH, 30 Ohm filter completely and see how you like it.
And, as always, have fun.
Jac
Ran the pair of primo FE's in the "super system" Tuesday night. I doubt that anyone has had the opportunity to use these amps with equivalent quality equipment. I accept the results as definitive, though of course listening is always subjective.
Not to brag, but just to put this in context and provide a reference: the speakers are mint Eggleston Andra II's, with a retail of $16k or so. Very near the best speakers I have ever heard, although these are not in an ideal room. Wadia CD transport with a Kora tube DAC with better RCA's and capacitors installed by me. Aragon preamp (their best model, but still not a superlative preamp) with lots of Siltech cabling that cost more than a decent used car. FE's replaced a genuine Aragon 8008BB, a powerhouse amp with an iron grip on the bass but an etched high end. Good clarity and projection, but no liquidity, a sort of hi-fi artificial sound but reasonably accurate. I almost don't like it, but it has some good points. I owned one myself in the 90's.
The FE's were running with balanced inputs through the conversion boards designed by Jac, with OPA627 opamps and solid silver input wire. Both amps were built with 33pF C10. One amp has 15pF (actually, a 5 and a 10 "stacked") C34, the other is built with 18pF C34. Both amps have 1.2uF TC (thanks, Dario) at C13 and "naked" Vishay Z-foil at R10 and genuine BG std at C9. C101 and 201 are Mundorf M-Lytic.
It took all of 20 minutes for warm-up, and then the music poured forth. I have never heard the familiar stuff recreated with such realism. I could blather on about this and that quality, but you all know what I mean. Every aspect was the best, period, except that the FE could not keep a firm grip on the bass like the Aragon. It was not bad, either: very deep and musical. No edge to the sound at all, crisp, airy highs with no brightness. Full, rich midrange with clarity and spaciousness. Images were rock solid and thoroughly 3D. Made the Aragon sound like an artificial electronic device compared to real instruments and performers.
We did not get a chance to play the FE's with single-ended input, which would have avoided two levels of conversion (S-E DAC to balanced inside the preamp, then back to S-E at the amps). I'm certain it would sound better yet.
So, what did the two different value compensation caps do? Very clearly, one channel was brighter than the other. I DO NOT KNOW which is which because the amps are identical in every other way. I am leaving them in place so my friend can listen and decide for himself which he prefers, but I knew immediately which one I liked more. Both were very good, but the bright channel sounded somewhat aggressive, closer to the Aragon. The other channel was warmer yet still detailed with rich, full sound and no edge. I won't know which amp has which value until I take them apart. I'll report back then.
Peace,
Tom E
Not to brag, but just to put this in context and provide a reference: the speakers are mint Eggleston Andra II's, with a retail of $16k or so. Very near the best speakers I have ever heard, although these are not in an ideal room. Wadia CD transport with a Kora tube DAC with better RCA's and capacitors installed by me. Aragon preamp (their best model, but still not a superlative preamp) with lots of Siltech cabling that cost more than a decent used car. FE's replaced a genuine Aragon 8008BB, a powerhouse amp with an iron grip on the bass but an etched high end. Good clarity and projection, but no liquidity, a sort of hi-fi artificial sound but reasonably accurate. I almost don't like it, but it has some good points. I owned one myself in the 90's.
The FE's were running with balanced inputs through the conversion boards designed by Jac, with OPA627 opamps and solid silver input wire. Both amps were built with 33pF C10. One amp has 15pF (actually, a 5 and a 10 "stacked") C34, the other is built with 18pF C34. Both amps have 1.2uF TC (thanks, Dario) at C13 and "naked" Vishay Z-foil at R10 and genuine BG std at C9. C101 and 201 are Mundorf M-Lytic.
It took all of 20 minutes for warm-up, and then the music poured forth. I have never heard the familiar stuff recreated with such realism. I could blather on about this and that quality, but you all know what I mean. Every aspect was the best, period, except that the FE could not keep a firm grip on the bass like the Aragon. It was not bad, either: very deep and musical. No edge to the sound at all, crisp, airy highs with no brightness. Full, rich midrange with clarity and spaciousness. Images were rock solid and thoroughly 3D. Made the Aragon sound like an artificial electronic device compared to real instruments and performers.
We did not get a chance to play the FE's with single-ended input, which would have avoided two levels of conversion (S-E DAC to balanced inside the preamp, then back to S-E at the amps). I'm certain it would sound better yet.
So, what did the two different value compensation caps do? Very clearly, one channel was brighter than the other. I DO NOT KNOW which is which because the amps are identical in every other way. I am leaving them in place so my friend can listen and decide for himself which he prefers, but I knew immediately which one I liked more. Both were very good, but the bright channel sounded somewhat aggressive, closer to the Aragon. The other channel was warmer yet still detailed with rich, full sound and no edge. I won't know which amp has which value until I take them apart. I'll report back then.
Peace,
Tom E
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Great Fun, Tom. It is really nice to hear that the qualities of the FE hold up in a really hi-end system.
Please report if you ever get to try the single ended approach. I did a similar comparison in my own system and would have to say that the difference was very small. But that comparison did not remove two conversion levels, I just changed from single ended to balanced out from my DAC and added my little board. My summary would be that it isn't worth the effort to change from SE to balanced, but using balanced is fine if that is what your equipment is built for.
Jac
Hey Tom, so happy to hear the results you have shared. The balanced/SE info from both you and Jac is quite interesting. I'm planning to try my first end-to-end balanced system (Pass BA-3) later this spring just because I've never done it. Hope it's worth the time and effort, but it's sounding like even that won't get the discretes up to the performance of SE FE.
Another comparison - is the Aragon 8008BB considered a Class A power amp at a portion off or at full output?
Do you have any thoughts about a mod or adjustment that might bring that bass handling up a bit. Can you be a little more descriptive? Was there a blooming or was it more like a lack of separation?
Great review
Another comparison - is the Aragon 8008BB considered a Class A power amp at a portion off or at full output?
Do you have any thoughts about a mod or adjustment that might bring that bass handling up a bit. Can you be a little more descriptive? Was there a blooming or was it more like a lack of separation?
Great review
Hi Tom,
interesting review.
You're welcome.
Can you describe what difference you heard comparing the MK132 and Vishay Z-Foils in R10?
I was thinking about trying them too in that position.
interesting review.
You're welcome.
Can you describe what difference you heard comparing the MK132 and Vishay Z-Foils in R10?
I was thinking about trying them too in that position.
I believe strongly that balanced op is advantageous only when the source is true balanced output. I don't know why every DAC doesn't have balanced outputs. It makes little sense to add two stages of conversion for the few feet of IC that is used, and probably introduces noise and distortion.
My friend uses his balanced preamp output and has some excellent balanced Siltech cabling, so that's what we used. I am encouraging him to obtain an equally high quality S-E IC so we can try that instead. Since the DAC is S-E, I believe that will simplify the chain and improve the sound.
The Aragon amp runs really hot, so I am sure it is biased into Class A for the first couple watts. I never put much value on Class A for its own sake, and now even less since I've heard the MyRef.
The 8008BB has always been noted for its "poor man's Krell" bass proficiency. It certainly has powerful impact and control in the lowest octave, but there is nothing exceptionally musical about it. The Andra's have TWO 12" woofers, so they can soak up a lot of current. The MyRef makes a valiant effort, and gets the music right, but it just does not have the solid slam and snap of the Aragon. For pipe organ and sound effects, the Aragon has an advantage. For most music, really not that much difference, and some might even prefer the slightly rounder MyRef bass.
My friend and I are contemplating bi-amping. The two amps are surprisingly close in efficiency, so only minor adjustment of volume would be needed. Not sure yet how to accomplish that.
After hearing Xicon, then PRP, then Shinkoh tant, then Riken CF, then Caddock MK132, then Vishay Z-foil, I am beginning to think that R10 is the most sonically significant resistor in the MyRef. From comparisons I heard in my system, I think the Vishay Z-foil is slightly smoother, more musical than the MK132 at R10. It seems to combine the musicality of the Riken with the clarity of the Caddock. That is always a tricky balancing act. I would be interested to hear other's impressions. I still have the Caddock in my amps because I can't afford the Vishay right now. The difference is subtle, and I have other priorities, like food. I don't clearly hear the negative qualities of the MK132, possibly because of my old ears, but I believe the Z-foil is better if the MK132 sound bothers you.
Peace,
Tom E
My friend uses his balanced preamp output and has some excellent balanced Siltech cabling, so that's what we used. I am encouraging him to obtain an equally high quality S-E IC so we can try that instead. Since the DAC is S-E, I believe that will simplify the chain and improve the sound.
The Aragon amp runs really hot, so I am sure it is biased into Class A for the first couple watts. I never put much value on Class A for its own sake, and now even less since I've heard the MyRef.
The 8008BB has always been noted for its "poor man's Krell" bass proficiency. It certainly has powerful impact and control in the lowest octave, but there is nothing exceptionally musical about it. The Andra's have TWO 12" woofers, so they can soak up a lot of current. The MyRef makes a valiant effort, and gets the music right, but it just does not have the solid slam and snap of the Aragon. For pipe organ and sound effects, the Aragon has an advantage. For most music, really not that much difference, and some might even prefer the slightly rounder MyRef bass.
My friend and I are contemplating bi-amping. The two amps are surprisingly close in efficiency, so only minor adjustment of volume would be needed. Not sure yet how to accomplish that.
After hearing Xicon, then PRP, then Shinkoh tant, then Riken CF, then Caddock MK132, then Vishay Z-foil, I am beginning to think that R10 is the most sonically significant resistor in the MyRef. From comparisons I heard in my system, I think the Vishay Z-foil is slightly smoother, more musical than the MK132 at R10. It seems to combine the musicality of the Riken with the clarity of the Caddock. That is always a tricky balancing act. I would be interested to hear other's impressions. I still have the Caddock in my amps because I can't afford the Vishay right now. The difference is subtle, and I have other priorities, like food. I don't clearly hear the negative qualities of the MK132, possibly because of my old ears, but I believe the Z-foil is better if the MK132 sound bothers you.
Peace,
Tom E
Thanks Tom, the Class A cleanliness is certainly detectable but I'm not sure loosing the unique top of the FE sound is a good trade-off.
I've had the same sense of "need just a bit more" on those pipe organ room shakers. Don't need it very often but it would be nice. Have you and your friend considered adding a separate powered sub to the FE output? I almost posted that question earlier this week. The problem as I see it is splicing into the FE output without weakening or degrading the signal.
I've had the same sense of "need just a bit more" on those pipe organ room shakers. Don't need it very often but it would be nice. Have you and your friend considered adding a separate powered sub to the FE output? I almost posted that question earlier this week. The problem as I see it is splicing into the FE output without weakening or degrading the signal.
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I agree. I don't understand why balanced outputs aren't available on all amps. I'm no expert, but I've done some study of DAC chips (mainly Wolfson and Cirrus) and they have all had balanced output directly from the chip, so there is often an additional step to convert balanced to SE in the SE output of a DAC. In your friends case, his system is certainly going through lots of conversions.
As for bi-amping, I'd say go for it. It would give you the opportunity for an active crossover between the woofers and the rest and provide some isolation between drivers. Plus, it would use the strong bass character of the Aragon where it is most useful.
Jac
Certainly a sub would be an easy way to add bass. I'm not sure all subs add BETTER bass, but they add volume at lower frequencies. It takes a big, sealed sub to really control low tones. In fact, he already has an okay sub, but we are not yet trying to optimize anything except the FE's. The two 12" woofers in each speaker are plenty for now. I am only trying to describe the differences between a respected commercial audio amplifier and our little babies. One major difference is how they control the bass, which is no surprise. I'm sure the FE has "better" bass than some other commercial amps, but not the 8008BB, although it's close.
If we bi-amp, it will be passive only, no messing with xovers other than an added sub. I know that's not ideal, but these speakers are too special to modify in any way, and they're already set-up for bi-amping. The Aragon could run the low end with more control and depth. I'm not sure that is absolutely necessary or worth the added complexity and expense, but my friend is interested in ultimates, not compromises. The speakers, if powered properly, are nearly ultimates. The FE's on mids and highs would be superlative.
Peace,
Tom E
If we bi-amp, it will be passive only, no messing with xovers other than an added sub. I know that's not ideal, but these speakers are too special to modify in any way, and they're already set-up for bi-amping. The Aragon could run the low end with more control and depth. I'm not sure that is absolutely necessary or worth the added complexity and expense, but my friend is interested in ultimates, not compromises. The speakers, if powered properly, are nearly ultimates. The FE's on mids and highs would be superlative.
Peace,
Tom E
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