Craftsmanship and engineering - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Amplifiers > Chip Amps

Chip Amps Amplifiers based on integrated circuits

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 25th July 2003, 08:32 AM   #1
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Craftsmanship and engineering

Hi,

Why can't audiophiles say that a power opamp sounds good because it is a well designed IC? Why must it be tarted up with esoteric resistors and caps, inverting configurations, and separate power humpties before people will say they sound good? The reason that our power opamp audio amplifiers sound good is because of years of science and engineering, and by good design and implementation by teams of engineers National, TI, and others. We're all just craftsmen putting them in various boxes. The sound was there already.

There are some really good and creative craftsmen that have built these amps judging from personal web pages and the gallery at Nuuk's site. Why can't you just be proud of that aspect of your work and leave it there?

You could bang on one of these things (gently) with a hammer directly on the case of the amp chip, and not even see a scope trace budge. How could oak v. maple possibly make a difference?

Why can't audiophiles be honest and just say that wood cases, machined metal parts, and ....tubes look cool and are fun to show their friends. Why do they always have to invoke some sort of miraculous sonic benefit?

You can't hear a difference between a wood and maple case or an amp suspended by a single madagascarian silk fiber in a vacuum. You just can't. 2 inches of hookup wire in a case or 2 feet of hookup wire in a power umbililical can't, and do not, have a "sonic signature". They just don't.

There was a previous thread where some people new to the hobby were wondering about whether or not things like different types of wood in cases would make a difference. My advice is to get a basic electronics book like "The Art of Electronics" by Horowitz and Hill. If you run across something in the audiophile world that's not mentioned in there, it almost certainly B.S. Audio electronics are no different than any other type of electronics.

The problem of power amplification for the home is sussed. You can get a chip and with a PS and a few resistors and caps, you can have as good of a sound from your amp up to 100W as anybody. Yes, even your friend with the Krell, and especially your friend with the SET amp

G
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2003, 12:56 PM   #2
Account Disabled
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: US
it is a very interesting and profound question.

I enjoy electronics because I like the challenges in the designing, building and debugging processes. After the amp is fully debugged and is working flawless, I usually start to disassemble it. There is no need for me to have more amps than I need and economically it is more expensive for me to build one than to buy one off the shelf.

I for one don't believe in the resistor sound, or insulation pad sound, etc. and it is silly in my book to think one can hear a pre-amp power supply being "positively grey and dynamically challenged", or that 30mm feedback length makes a sonic difference, or metal feet sound better than rubber feet, etc., unless they are proven to do so.

A lot of the times, it is human psychi (?) that is hearing all the differences. Those amps are our babies, and some of us expected to hear differences for all the time, money, sweat and love, and they got fooled by their minds.

Or they looked forward to being fooled by their minds. I have no problem with people believing that they hear the difference, but to argue for it on psudo science is another story.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2003, 03:56 PM   #3
dhaen is offline dhaen  Europe
diyAudio Moderator Emeritus
 
dhaen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: U.K.
Hi,

While I belong in the land of cynics rather than the land of believers, please let me state my case:

I am a professonal electronics engineers specialising in broadcast audio and video. As such I have heard a lot.

I lived with the same HIfi...mid range, just satisfying stuff for 12 years.
After my kids grew up, I decided to change it. The replacement sounded terrible. So I tried a few more. All sounded different, even the expensive stuff. This was an immence culture shock to someone who thought that "any idiot could design a reasonable amp".
After a lot of experimentation, I found my way back to valves (tubes).
It's a vast field out there, but there are visible markers.

Don't imagine you can solve it all by logic and analysis. If you do, then one day you'll be caught out like I was.....

Cheers,
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2003, 04:03 PM   #4
diyAudio Member
 
Peter Daniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Send a message via AIM to Peter Daniel
Default Re: Craftsmanship and engineering

Quote:
Originally posted by Gerontius

Why can't audiophiles be honest and just say that wood cases, machined metal parts, and ....tubes look cool and are fun to show their friends. Why do they always have to invoke some sort of miraculous sonic benefit?

You can't hear a difference between a wood and maple case or an amp suspended by a single madagascarian silk fiber in a vacuum. You just can't. 2 inches of hookup wire in a case or 2 feet of hookup wire in a power umbililical can't, and do not, have a "sonic signature". They just don't.

And what makes you so certain about it?
__________________
www.audiosector.com
“Do something really well. See how much time it takes. It might be a product, a work of art, who knows? Then give it away cheaply, just because you feel that it should not cost so much, even if it took a lot of time and expensive materials to make it.” - JC
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2003, 04:03 PM   #5
jwb is offline jwb  United States
diyAudio Member
 
jwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, USA
Send a message via AIM to jwb
I think people just take part of their experience and apply it in places where it may not help. It's harmless, no reason to get worked up over it.

Take microphonics, for example. SMD ceramic chip capacitors are highly microphonic. So if one gets used to thinking of ones components as microphonic, one might apply that habit to a project where it makes no sense. But again, it doesn't hurt.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2003, 05:18 PM   #6
JoeBob is offline JoeBob  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
JoeBob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Montreal, Canada
The Overture series of ICs are really well made, anyone that compared them to older amp chips will tell you that, they're much better.

But this is a DIY forum, I guess many people want to atribute the good sound to their efforts and not to whomever designed the IC.

Although, the inverted topology does sound better, but there have been MANY threads discussing that, I reccomend you read through them.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2003, 05:28 PM   #7
diyAudio Member
 
GUILHERME's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: PORTUGAL
Default So what's the problem ?

If someone thinks that mounting his amp on a 1000 year-old rare Japanese tree wood makes it sound better and is willing to pay $10000 for it, let him. Its good for the economy (the seller's at least). Whatever makes people happy I say.

You're taking things too seriously, really. I just read this stuff, discard what I know from education is BS and try to learn from those who actualy know what they're doing. But I must tell ya, many times the best (fun) reading comes from the BS pile

Hey, maybe someone should start a thread about the top100 audio-BS. Here let me start:

Numero Uno: bi-wiring

Take care,

Guilherme.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2003, 05:42 PM   #8
diyAudio Member
 
JOE DIRT®'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Brantford, ON
I would save that wood to smoke some brisket or endui sausage...Heck maybe some ribs too
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2003, 05:47 PM   #9
ronc is offline ronc  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Numero dos: 3K$ US, speaker cables.
ron
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2003, 05:55 PM   #10
diyAudio Member
 
seangoesbonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
I changed all the capacitors in my microwave to Black Gates, and now all my food tastes WAY better!!! Hooray!
__________________
My girlfriend's sub is bigger than mine...
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Engineering quality Lars Clausen Everything Else 10 25th November 2004 11:29 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 07:22 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2