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Old 30th July 2003, 08:47 AM   #81
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Nothing is the same.

By measurement, I could get a pair of matching FETs having the same Vgs. They are virtually the same, but never the same. There are many different types and brands of electronic components, and I believe that all are different and they give us different sounds. How much? I do not know well.

I did not know what electron was (still do not know much). Therefore, I started my diy audio with a simple thing, modification. First, I read tons of this and that about the modifications. For example, carbon resistors are good for better sounds of tube amps, tube lovers prefer coil-wound resistors for better sounds, old oil paper capacitors give us smooth and warm sounds, WIMA MKP capacitors make the sounds stiff and tight, silver-plated wires often over-strengthen the sharpness of sounds, tin-plated wires make the sounds softer, etc. and etc. I believed in these information and accordingly I changed lots of different types and brands of electronic components. Actually, I found that there were differences in sound. How much? I do not remember much.

I remember clearly that I invested lots of my expenses, but return with improved sounds was poor comparing with the amount of the investments and very much lower than my expectation.

I would recommend most diyers to put their investment not too much for different types and brands of components. But, If I am asked, I could tell Mr Nelson Pass to use much of his budget to dig into every corner including very small corners of sound improvement by changing many different components for a creation of the world best sounding amplifier.

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Old 30th July 2003, 09:59 AM   #82
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Hi,

The only think I have to say about the issue of respect that some people have brought up is that I think people in general can sometimes put too much emphasis on who a person is, and not enough on what they say, or even more importantly, not enough emphasis on the method they used to get their information.

My problem isn't with someone saying that, for example, maple cases sound different than oak. My problem is that with the method they've used to reach that conculsion, there is no real evidence to back up the claim. Scientifically valid tests of sensory perception can be conducted. If you don't do one, I don't see why I can't call you on it. silver wire may indeed make a difference in the sound of an amp, but unless you've done a valid test you don't know that. I think that some people have interpreted my tone as being rude which doesn't help my argument, and that's my fault. From now on instead of saying that you CAN'T hear a difference, I'll say that you haven't done a valid test to show that you can.

In a comparison between two amps, the null hypothesis is that they sound the same. You do the test to either reject or not reject the null hypothesis. If you reject it, then you can't say they sound the same. If you accept it then you haven't shown that they are different. This has nothing to do with being better or worse, because that is definitely personal taste, just different. As far as I know, no one has ever been able to tell two amps apart that measure reasonably close to each other in power, noise-level, and less than a few% THD.

A common misconception of science seems to be that the results ARE the science. The science is actually the method used to get the results. It's a method of asking questions about the universe, that's all.

Good discussion
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Old 30th July 2003, 12:13 PM   #83
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jh6you,

Thanks for your experiences.

A few comments;

You read "tons of this and that", I respectfully suggest you to read up on electronics & engineering in addition to "opinion statements". That way, you are in a much better position to judge the wild claims on tweaks and tunings.

You say that your investments in exotic components really paid off poorly, yet you also advise Mr Pass to do the same. That is not consistent. Why should Mr Pass spend HIS money if your experience is that it doesn't payoff well?

Anyway, your money is not thrown away. You learned a lot, didn't you?

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Old 30th July 2003, 08:34 PM   #84
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Default Clever Hans

oh SY, in the spirit of mutual respect and learning () i did look up the Clever Hans effect, which i think i've heard of before, and i'm not sure it is applicable here.

let me clarify the example i gave earlier. i have a recording on SACD, Saint-Saens Cello Concerto and Tchaikovsky Rococo Variations performed by Pieter Wispelwey, that i enjoy very much for the sonics but more importantly for the musical performance. i used to play this recording all the time, several times a week for several weeks, so my girlfriend became quite familiar with it even from casual observation. one night when we came home, i wanted to wind down with some relaxing music and stuck it in the player, while my gf went to my computer to check her email. a couple days prior, i had applied some ERS material to the player which she did not know about, and she had not heard my stereo since then. to the best of my knowledge i gave no indication of any change to the system, i did not even tell her to listen to the music - it was just playing in the background as usual as far as she was concerned. 3 minutes into the first track, she paused from her computer activities, and asked me what recording we were listening to. "Is this the same recording you always play? it sounds so different now." not revealing i had done anything to the system, i asked her why, and she went on to explain in words that corresponded almost exactly with my own impressions. if anything, she could hear the effect even more clearly than i could, and was able to explain it better to boot! it was eye-opening to say the least. where Clever Hans would have played a role in this, i'm not sure.

needless to say this is hardly a scientific experiment, but i think it at least gives me a little more confidence in something i otherwise can't document. i understand the role of human psychology in all of this, when someone makes a COMPLETELY UNSOLCITED comment on a change they're hearing, it makes it hard for me to believe that we're all just delusional...

p.s. in addition to hearing, we of course must consider the differences in systems (amps, speakers, etc.) and the attendant diferences in resolution when trying to determine the effect of "tweaks" different people can hear in different circumstances. i do think that something that sounds "night and day" to in one system is often imperceptible in another. i myself could not hear much if any difference in a lot of things like component damping, digital interconnects, power cords, etc. a few years ago when my system was not where it is today; however with every improvement and increase of resolution, small things that were once inconsequential became much more clearly audible. it's actually a bit of a curse, as it adds quite a snowball effect to our disease known as Audiophile Neurosis.
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Old 30th July 2003, 08:41 PM   #85
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Quote:
needless to say this is hardly a scientific experiment, but i think it at least gives me a little more confidence in something i otherwise can't document. i understand the role of human psychology in all of this, when someone makes a COMPLETELY UNSOLCITED comment on a change they're hearing, it makes it hard for me to believe that we're all just delusional...
First, thanks for taking the trouble to look up my obscure reference. It's at the very least a cool piece of trivia to pull out at parties. It's also why in medical research testing is done DOUBLE blind.

I wouldn't use the word "delusional" at all. Never have. What we are is human, and given the way evolution has shaped our brains, we all have an irresistable tendency to see patterns where none exist.
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Old 30th July 2003, 08:49 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by SY
What we are is human, and given the way evolution has shaped our brains, we all have an irresistable tendency to see patterns where none exist.
very true. how else would Iraq have been responsible for 9/11?
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Old 30th July 2003, 08:54 PM   #87
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very true. how else would Iraq have been responsible for 9/11?

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Old 30th July 2003, 09:01 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by SY
I wouldn't use the word "delusional" at all. Never have. What we are is human, and given the way evolution has shaped our brains, we all have an irresistable tendency to see patterns where none exist.
Hang on, let me just check that in the tea leaves...
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Old 31st July 2003, 01:08 AM   #89
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Jan Didden

Thanks for your good point about what to read. By the way, I have a personal problem that my CPU and RAM governing my head are losing power.

My point was that we might need to keep different pursuit between diyers and professional manufacturers. And, I believe that Mr Nelson Pass has a good filtering system in his ear receivers.

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Old 31st July 2003, 01:26 AM   #90
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Dorkus

Your ERS seems to impressively work for the mechanism of your CD transport. By the way, I recommend you to try more numbers of random put-ons and put offs of it at irregular time interval and record your gf reactions. Then, your comment could be more convincing.

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