Ah, I see you've taken a leaf out of my BoM
No, I'm sorry but I've ordered them the 27th of June... and first reported about them the 8th of July.
I was first...
BTW the real first was Russ White...
Yes
No, no, no!
Black Gates are electrolythics you must use a value of at least 47uF here, better to not change the 100uF original value at all.
With MKS2XL, that are film caps, I've taken the risk of lowering so much the value but stability has yet to be tested.
Don't do it with BGs... they're incredibly good but they're still electrolythics!!!
I am getting confused, or maybe it's our contributors that have become confused.
Black Gate in the NFB is so good that we don't need C21 as a bypass.
C21 must be FKP not MKP which can clearly be heard as inferior.
Electrolytics need a bypass.
Never bypass an electrolytic.
Electrolytics need to be big
Non Electrolytics do not need to be as big.
Keep capacitors to the same value, to ensure stability.
Change capacitor types but not value.
Change capacitors to hear sound changes, some might suit.
Do not change any capacitors, they are critical to stability.
Who do we believe?
Please bring back some clarity and sense.
Maybe these reports on further experiments don't belong in the build thread.
Consider further modifications and muddying of the waters for the design thread.
Summarise concisely for the builders.
Black Gate in the NFB is so good that we don't need C21 as a bypass.
C21 must be FKP not MKP which can clearly be heard as inferior.
Electrolytics need a bypass.
Never bypass an electrolytic.
Electrolytics need to be big
Non Electrolytics do not need to be as big.
Keep capacitors to the same value, to ensure stability.
Change capacitor types but not value.
Change capacitors to hear sound changes, some might suit.
Do not change any capacitors, they are critical to stability.
Who do we believe?
Please bring back some clarity and sense.
Maybe these reports on further experiments don't belong in the build thread.
Consider further modifications and muddying of the waters for the design thread.
Summarise concisely for the builders.
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Lol - the nice thing about audio is that it's about the closest one can get to alchemy without having to handle hazardous stuff - except maybe small amounts of lead.
Andrew, I agree that things are getting a little crazy and confused here, but I must report my latest experiment: I tried a can of beans for C13, and the sound is simply delicious. It should be a large can, with the bottom of the can on the ground side. Peel off the paper label for even better sound. Black beans sound the best; red beans impart a harsh flavor. Side benefit is that, if you don't like the sound, you can remove the can from the circuit and your beans will be warm for lunch.
The original intent of this group buy was to supply a proven configuration of an excellent design that would provide better sound than the low-cost version of the previous group buy. What is being proven here now is that the original design was good enough to permit some radical value changes of components that will still allow the amp to function, but it probably won't sound any better.
If any of you new builders care to experiment, it is universally agreed that the most critical location is C13. Unfortunately, quality caps for that position are expensive, and cheap caps are really not worth trying. Really. One way to economize is to use a smaller value, but that will affect the lowest tones the amp can produce. If you don't really need 20hz, use a smaller cap. I have no experience with the supplied Obligato, but it does have a good reputation. However, it might still be a compromise compared to the best out there. There are many others to try (including no cap, with some risk), and all of them will change the sound. At the very least, consider different film and foil types, not metalized film. Copper foil sounds better than tin, which sounds better than aluminum. Bypassing a cheap cap with a smaller, better cap is NOT recommended here, but please let us know if you find a combination that really works.
All of these other changes being discussed are merely refinements of an already superb kit. Whether you prefer one type of power supply bypass cap over another means about as much as whether you prefer Hendrix to Beethoven.
If you do discover a component or procedure that provides any real improvement (not merely a different sound), please share it with us. In a detailed, organized description that compares it to something we might be familiar with. After break-in. With extended, attentive listening on decent equipment, preferably in stereo. With your ego out of the way.
Peace,
Tom E
The original intent of this group buy was to supply a proven configuration of an excellent design that would provide better sound than the low-cost version of the previous group buy. What is being proven here now is that the original design was good enough to permit some radical value changes of components that will still allow the amp to function, but it probably won't sound any better.
If any of you new builders care to experiment, it is universally agreed that the most critical location is C13. Unfortunately, quality caps for that position are expensive, and cheap caps are really not worth trying. Really. One way to economize is to use a smaller value, but that will affect the lowest tones the amp can produce. If you don't really need 20hz, use a smaller cap. I have no experience with the supplied Obligato, but it does have a good reputation. However, it might still be a compromise compared to the best out there. There are many others to try (including no cap, with some risk), and all of them will change the sound. At the very least, consider different film and foil types, not metalized film. Copper foil sounds better than tin, which sounds better than aluminum. Bypassing a cheap cap with a smaller, better cap is NOT recommended here, but please let us know if you find a combination that really works.
All of these other changes being discussed are merely refinements of an already superb kit. Whether you prefer one type of power supply bypass cap over another means about as much as whether you prefer Hendrix to Beethoven.
If you do discover a component or procedure that provides any real improvement (not merely a different sound), please share it with us. In a detailed, organized description that compares it to something we might be familiar with. After break-in. With extended, attentive listening on decent equipment, preferably in stereo. With your ego out of the way.
Peace,
Tom E
Hi Andrew,
I'm not confused at all but I do agree that the film caps in C6/C11 made some confusion in the thread.
Never said that... I've simply said that this particular cap could sound better without bypass. I'm investigating...
If you don't trust me, just try it
In some positions and applications a bypass works, in others not, what's the problem?
Just think about output coupling caps in CD players...
If you calculate the cap for the desired cutoff freqency, for example 5 uF and you find in the circuit a 50-100uF Electrolythic cap... why?
In opamps datasheet is not uncommon to find suggested decoupling caps of 1uf to 10uf when some current is needed.
In several design you find caps 10 times bigger, if you try the big one and the suggested one you can ear a difference, why?
You're simply misrepresenting what I wrote in this thread, why?
I've posted 3 over 74 total posts in the last week reporting my impressions, to me it's already concise.
All three posts were coherent and confirmed or tuned previous impressions...
What I report is based on my direct experience, not on presuppositions.
Obviously others could like better other parts.
I encourage others experimenting too and reporting here.
I appreciate when someone contradict something I've recommended, if he actually tried it and reports...
All this GB, the great and hard Uriah's work
worship started from the previous work that Tom and I did experimenting... Last time I've spent hundreds of Euros in alternative parts and so this time.
This is fine, I did it just for ME, because I trust this design.
From this forum (and from you) I've learned a lot and I thought it was right to share my work... I was wrong?
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I can't agree, last time we both left untested several potentially critical positions.
And the results are encouraging, not different sound but better sound...
Tom,
since you experimented with pure copper connectors and OCC hook-up wire, can you report on that?
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What do you guys think about using a separate power supply? I was thinking of that Aleph PSU that BrianGT sells and then remove the diodes and 10,000uf caps from the amp.
Tom, Youve got a good recipe. In my family when someone has a great recipe we tell them to 'keep workin on it.' Glad you all are.
Tom, Youve got a good recipe. In my family when someone has a great recipe we tell them to 'keep workin on it.' Glad you all are.
Dear Andrew
Andrew,
I've the bad feeling (from the DCB1 thread) that you've been somewhat hurted by my response to your post.
What I wanted was simply an aswer...
It was never my intention to hurt you nor to attack you, at the same time I tried to make it clear that I found your post misrepresenting and sometimes ridiculing my comments.
English is not my mother tongue so it could be that I've missed some linguistic nuances, sometimes so important... if so forgive me and please explain what I've missed.
I value your comments and opinion and I will be glad if we clarify this...
Andrew,
I've the bad feeling (from the DCB1 thread) that you've been somewhat hurted by my response to your post.
What I wanted was simply an aswer...
It was never my intention to hurt you nor to attack you, at the same time I tried to make it clear that I found your post misrepresenting and sometimes ridiculing my comments.
English is not my mother tongue so it could be that I've missed some linguistic nuances, sometimes so important... if so forgive me and please explain what I've missed.
I value your comments and opinion and I will be glad if we clarify this...
Dario,
Let's be honest: we made the biggest changes to this amp already. Changing this little cap or that resistor really isn't going to CHANGE the sound of the amp very much. I'm not saying it can't be improved, but these really are subtle refinements that need to be evaluated carefully, with some time. Some people may prefer one type of sound to another. Just by using better parts, we accomplished a lot. No need to stop now, but Andrew is correct that all these tests are getting confusing. I always enjoy reading your reports, and I usually understand what you're doing, but I bet even you can't keep track of all the different types of sound you have gotten from doing so many part substitutions and different combinations of parts.
It's time to step back, take a deep breath, and evaluate all of this. I stopped trying different parts after I reached a satisfactory level of performance. With input from your additional experiments, I will push that level further now that I've had almost a year to listen to it. Many others have listened, too, on all types of equipment, including VERY good, expensive (more than a new car!) speakers, and compared to much more expensive amplifiers. If you just keep changing parts, you never really learn what this amp, or any component in your system, sounds like.
Russ White thought that adding all those bypass caps made the amp sound better, but we know now, after careful listening, that it wasn't really better, just different.
Regarding OCC copper wire and solid copper/gold-plated connectors: yes, they are better than mass market wire and cheaper stuff made from brass. Home Depot wire is great for power cords and mid-fi receivers. This amp sounds better with really good wire for input and output. I use only solid core OCC copper with teflon insulation. It produces a smoother, more open sound. Same with connectors. Initially, I used the cheapest Parts Express stuff on this amp, then switched to Vampire solid copper/gold. Yeah, they cost a lot, but the whole amp still costs around $300 and it sounds better than amps that cost $3000. If you want a mid-fi amp such as Aragon or Parasound, use cheap parts. If you want better sound, use better parts (or parts made from better materials), and they cost more. Pretty simple equation. Again, these are refinements of sound, not a complete change. It can be appreciated only when you're listening to music, not while you're doing the dishes. If one doesn't believe in this sort of thing, then keep doing dishes and forget about the music.
And don't forget about power cords! I keep saying it because I've heard what a drastic difference they can make on this amp, and I don't believe that's true of every amp. You don't need expensive ones because you can make excellent ones yourself for less than $100.
Peace,
Tom E
Let's be honest: we made the biggest changes to this amp already. Changing this little cap or that resistor really isn't going to CHANGE the sound of the amp very much. I'm not saying it can't be improved, but these really are subtle refinements that need to be evaluated carefully, with some time. Some people may prefer one type of sound to another. Just by using better parts, we accomplished a lot. No need to stop now, but Andrew is correct that all these tests are getting confusing. I always enjoy reading your reports, and I usually understand what you're doing, but I bet even you can't keep track of all the different types of sound you have gotten from doing so many part substitutions and different combinations of parts.
It's time to step back, take a deep breath, and evaluate all of this. I stopped trying different parts after I reached a satisfactory level of performance. With input from your additional experiments, I will push that level further now that I've had almost a year to listen to it. Many others have listened, too, on all types of equipment, including VERY good, expensive (more than a new car!) speakers, and compared to much more expensive amplifiers. If you just keep changing parts, you never really learn what this amp, or any component in your system, sounds like.
Russ White thought that adding all those bypass caps made the amp sound better, but we know now, after careful listening, that it wasn't really better, just different.
Regarding OCC copper wire and solid copper/gold-plated connectors: yes, they are better than mass market wire and cheaper stuff made from brass. Home Depot wire is great for power cords and mid-fi receivers. This amp sounds better with really good wire for input and output. I use only solid core OCC copper with teflon insulation. It produces a smoother, more open sound. Same with connectors. Initially, I used the cheapest Parts Express stuff on this amp, then switched to Vampire solid copper/gold. Yeah, they cost a lot, but the whole amp still costs around $300 and it sounds better than amps that cost $3000. If you want a mid-fi amp such as Aragon or Parasound, use cheap parts. If you want better sound, use better parts (or parts made from better materials), and they cost more. Pretty simple equation. Again, these are refinements of sound, not a complete change. It can be appreciated only when you're listening to music, not while you're doing the dishes. If one doesn't believe in this sort of thing, then keep doing dishes and forget about the music.
And don't forget about power cords! I keep saying it because I've heard what a drastic difference they can make on this amp, and I don't believe that's true of every amp. You don't need expensive ones because you can make excellent ones yourself for less than $100.
Peace,
Tom E
Dario,
I'm sorry I forgot to say that your English is very good. It is a difficult language, and you know a lot of the strange ways we like to say or write things. We always overlook your errors. You're much better at English than any of us are at Italian! Please continue.
I hope Andrew isn't offended by what you wrote; it didn't seem very offensive. I think we all get a little temperamental sometimes, too protective of our ideas and opinions. If someone questions too much, we might resent it. You are correct that there is a level of risk whenever you put things in writing that would be easier (or better) to say in person, especially in a foreign language. Andrew is a veteran of these forums, and he probably knows by now how to read things properly and put them in context.
International Peace,
Tom E
I'm sorry I forgot to say that your English is very good. It is a difficult language, and you know a lot of the strange ways we like to say or write things. We always overlook your errors. You're much better at English than any of us are at Italian! Please continue.
I hope Andrew isn't offended by what you wrote; it didn't seem very offensive. I think we all get a little temperamental sometimes, too protective of our ideas and opinions. If someone questions too much, we might resent it. You are correct that there is a level of risk whenever you put things in writing that would be easier (or better) to say in person, especially in a foreign language. Andrew is a veteran of these forums, and he probably knows by now how to read things properly and put them in context.
International Peace,
Tom E
Clave,
your comments did not offend me.
Others do a far better job of that.
What your response did show was that you did not read about what was causing the confusion.
I am paraphrasing various advices. I cannot call it build advice.
I have said these experiment reports belong in the design thread.
You ignored that and kept going off topic trying to defend what hadn't been written.
Take my first two pairs as examples.
They are accompanied by reports from others.
How do we builders gain build knowledge from those "build" theories?
Read the two pairs a statements again.
One says Black Gates are good, so good that we do not and should not consider adding a bypass. Then the other statement says electrolytics do not need a bypass.
The opposite view comes the the other half of the pairs.
Electrolytics should be bypassed and followed up with That a Black Gate with an inferior bypass can be improved by using the supplied FKP.
An FKP that does not fit the PCB.
Please explain to all, since you are the one that thinks I am out of order to select quotes from earlier "build" advice paragraphs, how we are to make sense of these off topic ramblings.
This is the build thread.
Go and play in the design thread.
your comments did not offend me.
Others do a far better job of that.
What your response did show was that you did not read about what was causing the confusion.
I am paraphrasing various advices. I cannot call it build advice.
I have said these experiment reports belong in the design thread.
You ignored that and kept going off topic trying to defend what hadn't been written.
Take my first two pairs as examples.
These use some of your reports.
They are accompanied by reports from others.
How do we builders gain build knowledge from those "build" theories?
Read the two pairs a statements again.
One says Black Gates are good, so good that we do not and should not consider adding a bypass. Then the other statement says electrolytics do not need a bypass.
The opposite view comes the the other half of the pairs.
Electrolytics should be bypassed and followed up with That a Black Gate with an inferior bypass can be improved by using the supplied FKP.
An FKP that does not fit the PCB.
Please explain to all, since you are the one that thinks I am out of order to select quotes from earlier "build" advice paragraphs, how we are to make sense of these off topic ramblings.
This is the build thread.
Go and play in the design thread.
So you're the one that decide what is on topic and what not...
In every build thread in this forum people give advice and reports on components they use...
And another time you attack me, and offend me...
Obviously I was wrong about you...
Andrew, what the problem is is that you are condescending when you criticize. Also you pick and choose which threads you will and wont act like this in. When is the last time you posted something about people being OT in the F5 thread which hasnt had an On Topic post in days? Or how about DCB1 thread? Then when a mod posts a slightly Off Topic post in the Lightspeed thread you threaten to tell the mods.....
If you want to be taken seriously you ALSO have to remain consistent.
Everyone values your opinion but when we have to take your medicine it would be nice if it werent so bitter.
Uriah
If you want to be taken seriously you ALSO have to remain consistent.
Everyone values your opinion but when we have to take your medicine it would be nice if it werent so bitter.
Uriah
This amp is not being designed or redesigned. The design is proven; the implementation is not. It is being built by many, and a few people have been generous enough to offer opinions on how best to do that. If there is a better way to build it, I am very happy to learn about it. If that involves selecting different components, we should be grateful that a few have taken the time and expense to experiment and share their findings. More builders should come forward and share their own impressions, but how much information do you think they will share in such a repressive atmosphere? What else is there to discuss in this thread?
Let's not chase Dario away in the same manner that Mauro was. I believe he posts here with the best intentions. He should not need to defend himself or hide in another thread.
Andrew, have you built an amp yet? Can you tell us what you think about it? Did your resistor matching procedure yield any benefits?
Why doesn't C21 fit on the board? Besides the fact that a big *** BG is in the way! It fits very neatly underneath. It's only about 1/4" tall. Is that a big problem?
Uriah, what would be the point of a separate power supply? I think two big advantages of this amp are simplicity and compactness. Wouldn't an outboard supply only complicate it? The original MyRef thread featured all kinds of schemes to "improve" the supply, but I'm not sure any of them really did.
Peace,
Tom E
Let's not chase Dario away in the same manner that Mauro was. I believe he posts here with the best intentions. He should not need to defend himself or hide in another thread.
Andrew, have you built an amp yet? Can you tell us what you think about it? Did your resistor matching procedure yield any benefits?
Why doesn't C21 fit on the board? Besides the fact that a big *** BG is in the way! It fits very neatly underneath. It's only about 1/4" tall. Is that a big problem?
Uriah, what would be the point of a separate power supply? I think two big advantages of this amp are simplicity and compactness. Wouldn't an outboard supply only complicate it? The original MyRef thread featured all kinds of schemes to "improve" the supply, but I'm not sure any of them really did.
Peace,
Tom E
Hi Tom,
you would be surprised by the effect that some of the mods I'm experimenting have on sound...
But I do agree that every single mod is a subtle refinement, quite all of them, including the ones of last year, are so...
But all together they improve this fantastic design's performance to a much higher level...
If someone will insist that discussing them in this thread is off-topic I'll simply open a new thread...
Thanks Tom
You know well it's not an easy job but we're all enjoing the results of our work, isn't it?
This is exactly what I hoped to read!
I've also tried some solid core OFC teflon served cable for input and it made a difference.
I've also buyed CMC pure copper RCA and binding posts, they arrived today
OCC copper cable also on the road... and I've also some exoteric Aluminun OCC to try...
You said it long time ago but I was skeptic... this year the same friend that tried other mods borrowed me a fantastic aluminum OCC power cable...
Wow! What a difference!
Thanks Tom
Thanks to both Uriah and Tom for your refreshing posts...
Is that an adapter in the photo for the can LM318? Can you provide me with a partno so I can order?
Yes, it is.
But unfortunately I don't have a part number, I've bought it here.
I've mixed feelings about the metal can... it seems more airy but in some way the plastic one is more detailed... (I know, it is a contradiction...).
Probably the combination socket+adapter mades wires too long, I suspect oscillation because the metal can version seems way hotter than the plastic one.
I'll measure temperature for both...just to be sure.
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Hi Regi,
your right but that is an adapter, actually, not a socket. It bends and organize the leads of the metal can version so that it can be mounted on DIL sockets.
Nevertheless pins are much longer than the ones of a regular DIP opamp...
If measured temperature will be much different I'll try to remove the adapter and trim pins shorter.
Thanks
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