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Chip Amps Amplifiers based on integrated circuits

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Old 18th June 2003, 03:05 PM   #31
SY is offline SY  United States
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Our approach and philosophy regarding sound perception might differ, but it doesn't stop us from sharing our experiences, right?
Well, of course, but it needed to be pointed out that your objection to controlled testing is not inherent. Nor is it a factor in well-designed tests. Just because someone has built a crummy tube amp, it doesn't follow that tube amps generically have the same defects.
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Old 18th June 2003, 03:26 PM   #32
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Originally posted by SY


Well, of course, but it needed to be pointed out that your objection to controlled testing is not inherent. Nor is it a factor in well-designed tests. Just because someone has built a crummy tube amp, it doesn't follow that tube amps generically have the same defects.
Well, I say it again, listening to music and A/B testing is different. Even when testing, I decide on a certain choice, it doesn't mean that I will approve or like it after prolonged listening. So both approaches are important and have appeal to certain individual preferences. If A/B makes your day, it's alright with me. I won't argue about superiority of any method. But I tried it and it simply doesn't work for me. It was also done in the beginning of my audio journey as I thought it was the simplest thing to do, just switch the signal from one source to the other as fast as you can and try to find a difference. When I look back at those days, a smile comes to my face
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Old 18th June 2003, 03:35 PM   #33
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Originally posted by Peter Daniel

If it doesn't click, I have to listen even longer

That's a good one.
Deam, I can't stop laughing.
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Old 19th June 2003, 06:49 AM   #34
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Carlos,

I know my DVD isn't hi-end , and the differences are more easily detected with my TD, but not big anyway. I will try the 2228 because BB was kind enough to send me pair

Peter,

Haha, AB two violins (good one). In spite of the similarities, when you play the violin you are the signal generator, the amp, the wiring (bow) and the listener, and the violin is only the speaker (bassreflex, btw). So there are even more items to consider.
Yes, I could agree that AB is artificial, but you will have to agree that AB can give some information too, can't it? If two amps are obviously different, this should appear in a AB most of the times, right? Maybe a long listening test make you to enjoy more an specific amp, but those "big" differences, those "obvious" improvements, should be detectable by AB
I'm also finding by myself things that you said in your post, like the presence of other people makes you less prone to artificial biasing to yourself.
I take the opportunity to ask you something (as I'm also a fan of your amps and building skills) Do you think that covering all the amp (well, the chip and caps only) with silicone or hot glue would damp the amp?, damp the amp, let's sing together, damp the amp, dampd-amp, damp the amp damp-d-amp (now the battery at countertime) punchin, punchin, damp, punchin, theamp... Where is the bassist!?!?!?!? Hey you, stop drinking and come here!! bum, bum, bum, punchin, damp, chinpunchin, the amp, bumm, bumm, This sounds good, let's phone Hetfield to put some guitars and record this...

So you know what is to work the ear 8 hours a day, I admire you.

Mothman,

Thanks for your comments and congratulations for your amp, that's what I was hoping to hear. To which gear did you strictly AB'd?


SY

But you stop them to drink the complete bottle each type of wine, don't you?


Has somebody else AB'd a Gainclone? I sincerely respect and understand the people who doesn't catch a difference in an AB but still prefer A to B, but I'd love to hear your comments about an AB.
I will try to report a AB of my amps. If I have time this evening, I'll try to write my opinions on a audition. In the meantime, please listen you all to the second part of the first violin concerto of Sostakovich (preferable by Oistrakh)
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Old 19th June 2003, 07:12 AM   #35
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Careful with excessive damping - it can kill the sound. Especially with hot glue where the dielectric constant/conductivity may not be well known. I've tried potting audio circuits with epoxy in the very distant past with disastrous effects.

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Old 19th June 2003, 08:17 AM   #36
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Thanks for the advice.
Now the pins of the chip are covered with a small ball of silicone, just to avoid shorts or broken pins, since the caps are kind of floating in the air.
What do you mean "kill" the sound? What "disastrous" results: dielectric breaking or smeared output?
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Old 19th June 2003, 01:35 PM   #37
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There is an interesting article on resonances http://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb111998.htm

Here are some info from there. I can totaly agree with the idea of redistributing resonances and not completely eliminating them to achieve best sound signature:

>>You can take identical components, build identical circuit boards and install all the parts in different cases with different hardware and the resulting components will sound different. There is no way to stop this. The reason the sound will change is that mechanical resonances affect sonics -- what you hear when you listen to your system is affected by how the manufacturer dealt with mechanical resonances in the products you use.

The key is uniform distribution of mechanical resonances
Products with "clumped" resonances will never sound as good as products where the designer took the time to distribute resonances across the audio frequency spectrum as much as possible. However, there will always be some limitations to how effectively you can spread out resonances. Doing nothing is rarely the right answer.
Every change made will change the sound heard, but that sound is not necessarily going to be better. Tuning a component is filled with pitfalls. The designers who do pay attention to mechanical resonances are going to end up with a more sophisticated, refined sound that will elude products which are designed and assembled with little or no thought to resonance control. Actually, I want you to think "resonance redistribution" when I write "resonance control." You don’t necessarily want to kill all resonances by embedding the entire product in asphalt or pouring the box full of visco-elastic polymer with a resonant frequency lower than 3Hz. Brute-force deadening of all resonances with heavy absorbent or damping materials is usually worse-sounding than effective resonance redistribution -- at least when we are dealing with electrical/electronic components. The one exception to this seems to be the power transformer. The more effectively isolated from the component’s chassis it is, the better the component seems to sound.
<<
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Old 19th June 2003, 01:51 PM   #38
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What do you mean "kill" the sound? What "disastrous" results: dielectric breaking or smeared output?
The usual confusion between sound and "sound." From an electrical standpoint, there's not much there.

There are bazillions of fine sounding amps out there made with transistors and ICs potted in epoxy, which analog deems "disastrous." That alone should give you pause and help you look at advice with an appropriate degree of skepticism.

If you can't induce microphonics in a piece of gear by tapping with a pen in various places, you've got nothing to worry about; the "resonances" will have no effect on electrical behavior. The downside is merely sociological. Mechanical percussion is a much stronger excitation than any impinging acoustic wave.
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Old 19th June 2003, 02:15 PM   #39
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Originally posted by SY



If you can't induce microphonics in a piece of gear by tapping with a pen in various places, you've got nothing to worry about; the &quot;resonances&quot; will have no effect on electrical behavior. The downside is merely sociological. Mechanical percussion is a much stronger excitation than any impinging acoustic wave.

I can't help it, but I also have to take a pause and look at your advice with an appropriate degree of skepticism.

What exactly is your experience in that area that you feel fit to give that sort of advice?
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Old 19th June 2003, 02:24 PM   #40
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What exactly is your experience in that area that you feel fit to give that sort of advice?
Are you looking for a CV? If so, I'd rather provide that to you via email.

Having built a few hundred amps on a DIY basis, (solid state, tube and hybrid), run dozens of controlled listening tests, a couple of decades of professional involvement with sensory testing, receiving more patents than I can count, and putting a few tens (maybe hundreds by now) of millions of electronic products out in the marketplace, I feel that my cautions might have some small basis in experience. This is not to say that I'm any kind of authority (I'm not an EE, my training is in physics and chemistry), or that I can't be proved wrong (that happens on a daily basis), but rather that my cautions to use some skepticism and common sense ought to be taken slightly seriously.
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