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Old 18th June 2003, 11:59 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by peranders
I think you guys forget one thing: If my eye likes what it sees it's an advantage. Visual impressions are very important. If we have a black box, it's more difficult to pick the difference.

Ahaha!
That's funny.
Some people may connect aesthetics to sound quality.
I don't.
Even a bunch of wires and boards laying on the floor may give miracle sounds.

Peranders, you're talking to DIYers...
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Old 18th June 2003, 12:01 PM   #22
Raka is offline Raka  Europe
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Carlos,

Have you AB'd your gainclone? Based on what do you think a gainclone will beat a denon?

The caps of my clone are very standard electros, they were about half an euro each. Could be this the reason? I've read comments of builders with standard caps, and they also praise the 3875. How much can be expected from a Panasonic?

Peter,
Nope, are there no LMchips in the denon
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Old 18th June 2003, 12:25 PM   #23
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I am going to be interested in hearing a GC compared to my current equipment also....as it stands right now I have zero invested in it but time...what keeps me motivated is this forum and the Rep at national.....that was a little hint for the members here....you would be surprised if you gave some feedback on how you have utilised their product

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Old 18th June 2003, 12:50 PM   #24
SY is offline SY  United States
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Quote:
The most difficult thing is to adjust the volume equally if you don't use a signal generator to measure the gain. Even the smallest difference makes a difference substantial.
Normally, that's true, it's the hardest, fiddliest, most tedious thing to do. And because of that, most informal tests are fatally flawed. You really need, besides the signal generator and a high-resolution voltmeter, a precision attenuator. If you don't get the levels matched to better than 0.1 dB, your test will almost always favor the louder amp, with the test subjects perceiving not "louder," but rather "clearer," "more open." This has led a lot of people down the garden path.


Christer: Thresholds for different aromas and flavors vary greatly among individuals. And that's a different thing than sensory memory. For example, I can taste a wine and give you a pretty accurate estimate of alcohol, residual sugar, and acidity. My cooking partner can't do that, but he'll tell you what the wine is and where it's from to a surprising accuracy. He REMEMBERS the markers of certain vineyards and regions to an extent that I just can't.

I note though that we always do analytical tastings blind, using various protocols.
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Old 18th June 2003, 12:58 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Raka
Carlos,

Have you AB'd your gainclone? Based on what do you think a gainclone will beat a denon?

The caps of my clone are very standard electros, they were about half an euro each. Could be this the reason? I've read comments of builders with standard caps, and they also praise the 3875. How much can be expected from a Panasonic?

Peter,
Nope, are there no LMchips in the denon

Raka, my good old Nad amp goes to my son's bedroom.
I didn't exactly did A/B tests, but the difference is so great anyone who hears to my GC gets amazed.
I did tests with my Nad against my GC, but not pure A/B.
I went to my father's house one day with my GC.
We listened to some well recorded CDs that we know very well and compared his AMC amp with my GC.
Let's say it's another world.
My father whants to make one too, he is amazed.
I already made the two channels for him, and he's waiting for the toroid to arrive.
When I put something playing to demonstate a device I like to put some music that the person knows very well.
It's easier.

As for the caps, I made mine with cheap caps too.
Nothing too fancy, nothing too ordinary.
Some Daewoo 1000uf 105º temp. rating caps.
The price is about the same as yours.
Bypassed with 100nf polyesters.
It's important to bypass if you use cheap caps.
Take a look to my "PC Gainclone" thread for some pictures of my GC.

I say a GC beats your Denon AV amp based on the fact that I have serious doubts your Denon is better for music than my Nad Monitor Series stereo amp.

And one thing that you can try is to listen to a good vinyl record while testing, because listening to a good CD on a cheap (don't take me wrong) DVD it's not good.
You have a better vinyl front-end than CD.
You would be surprized if you changed the NE5532 op-amp on your phono preamp to a Burr-Brown OPA2228.
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Old 18th June 2003, 01:40 PM   #26
mothman is offline mothman  United States
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I have A/B my gainclone against several very fine production amps.
I built my clone with all premium parts,Black Gates,Dact attenuators,Mills resitors,Plitron trafo,Schottky diodes,Cardas wire and connectors.All parts carefully mounted in a high quality,rigid aluminum case with suitably sized aluminum heatsinks and vibration control.
This spare no expense clone cost me about $700 in parts.Parts quality that you will rarely if ever see in many very expensive production amps and yes I've owned and been inside several.
I'm also an experienced acoustic guitar player and am very familiar with the finer points of selecting,setting up and repairing high quality instruments.
My listening test and comparisons tell me that a 'HIGH QUALTY'gainclone can and does compete with excellent solid state amps in the $2000 to $4500 range.
I now use mine exclusively and have no desire to spend any more thousands on high end gear.
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Old 18th June 2003, 02:09 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Raka


Has anyone out there AB'd any gainclone? Really?
Can you A/B two violins?
I don't A/B amps and other equipment because that doesn't tell me anything. You just compare the sound in a brief moment between switching and it is artificial. For me the amp is like a musical instrument and I prefer to listen to it and finding my reaction to the sound presented.

Sometimes, in case when equipment varies much, I know right away that this is not the musical presentation I'm after. Sometimes it takes a long time to decide which sounds better. Sometimes the presence of other people helps, because they make remarks, you wouldn't think about.

I can have 10 GC built, ea. with a small difference, (resistor, wire, insulating pad, capacitor) and I just switch them in a system and listen. The difference is usually very obvious. Like last time when I compared 250k and 300k feddback resistor.

I also improved my initial design by substituting parts and achieving even better three dimentional sound. Incidentally, I was not much impressed with 1000u/50V BG N caps ($74 ea.) for PS filtering. They were only a bit more smoother and slightly more laid back that comparable standard BG grade and some people actually preferred standard version of the cap.

In GC every little detail has big influence on sound, just changing umbilical cord from Kimber to Cardas brought another "dimension" to the sound. Also the way the casing is done and PS caps are damped, even insulating pad influences the sound.

So you might say that this amp is better or worse than the other, but I can built 10 GC and ea. will sound different. All I have to do, is make my choice


Quote:
Originally posted by Raka


Have you spent 8 hours a day trying to get the damn passage in tune with the correct sound, and shades, and dynamics, and tempo, and phrasing, and style and listening to the complete picture with the others musicians?
I was listening for 8 hours to the caps in my crossover, listening to few damn CDs, looking for the correct sound, and shades, and dynamics, and tempo, and phrasing, and style and listening to the complete picture with the others.
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Old 18th June 2003, 02:27 PM   #28
SY is offline SY  United States
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Quote:
I was listening for 8 hours to the caps in my crossover
Did they have anything interesting to say?

BTW, there's nothing that restricts subjective, controlled, sensory testing to short passages. In the same way, when I run people through my wine sensory panels, they can take as long as they like. I don't stand there with a stopwatch and yell, "Put that glass down and pick up the next one!"
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Old 18th June 2003, 02:27 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Daniel

I was listening for 8 hours to the caps in my crossover, listening to few damn CDs, looking for the correct sound, and shades, and dynamics, and tempo, and phrasing, and style and listening to the complete picture with the others.

When things make "click" and the sound quality is really good, I can't stop listening!
Enjoy the music.
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Old 18th June 2003, 02:30 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by SY


Did they have anything interesting to say?

BTW, there's nothing that restricts subjective, controlled, sensory testing to short passages. In the same way, when I run people through my wine sensory panels, they can take as long as they like. I don't stand there with a stopwatch and yell, "Put that glass down and pick up the next one!"
Our approach and philosophy regarding sound perception might differ, but it doesn't stop us from sharing our experiences, right?


Quote:
Originally posted by carlosfm



When things make "click" and the sound quality is really good, I can't stop listening!
Enjoy the music.
If it doesn't click, I have to listen even longer
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