The new "My Ref" Rev C thread

Always start from the basic...

Since I think this controversial debate on wires should be quickly closed I've managed to anticipate my tests.

I've started listening to a plain stranded OFC cable.

It sounds good, full, timbre is natural.

Than I've listened again to OCC Alumunim.

More refined, bigger soundstage, a bit colder than OFC but presence suffered...

Neotech OCC copper was similar to alluminum but warmer and presence suffered a lot more (bathroom effect was here).

Something was wrong whith both OCC copper and OCC aluminum so I've tried reversing both (OCC wire is directional)

Now presence is much much better, sound is fuller with both but they mantain their timbre: Alluminum a bit cold and Copper a bit recessed.

I still think that the Neotech solid core OCC copper has something that not suits my taste but difference among it and aluminum is much less...

So I was wrong and I think it is a very good wire, just a bit recessed.

Also alluminum is a very good one but colder than I like.

In fact when I've mixed them (on on signal and the other on ground) I've obtained a more balanced sound.

Also Neotech OCC Silver balances well with Neotech OCC Copper.


The lesson I've learned is that having a clear reference (like the plain OFC wire) helps... ;)


Operative note for OCC users:

when you select the best sounding direction remember that the right one is that with fuller sound... :D
 
Dario,

Thanks for the thorough testing and interesting results, as usual. I have not ever heard the directionality of wire, but I have definitely heard the sound of wire (and everything else, even solder joints!) change in the span of the first dozen or so hours of use. Call it break-in or whatever, another controversial topic. How long did you listen to each wire? I know from experience the Neotech needs some playing time to open up. Please don't tell me it's only my ears adjusting.

I see you mentioned the bathroom effect again. Are you contradicting yourself? I asked about it a few posts back, and you wrote that you don't have that. Now you claim you do.

Here is something in reference to the MyRef, and all amps in general. I notice in the pic of your wire that you use clips on the ends. I think those may have some effect on the sound. Every connector has an effect. Of course, if you use the clips on all your tests, it should affect every test equally, but you never know. My in and out leads are all soldered to the board, and output wires are clamped by the mounting nuts, not soldered, onto the speaker binding posts. Do you use those nickel plated quick connect tabs on your PCB? Convenient for testing, but not good for sonics. Okay for power connection, I guess, but even there I use copper leads soldered to the board and wire nuts to connect to tranny.

Troy, power passes through all that aluminum wire, but not the signal (I hope).

I don't mind discussing off topic, as long as it still relates to audio. Everything is hooked up with wire, so it is an important topic, but it usually leads to pointless debates. Let's say everyone gets ONE more post about wire, and then we're done with it here. This is my last post on that subject.

Peace,
Tom E
 
Thanks for the thorough testing and interesting results, as usual.

As usual, you're welcome , Tom :)

I have not ever heard the directionality of wire, but I have definitely heard the sound of wire (and everything else, even solder joints!) change in the span of the first dozen or so hours of use.

OCC wire is definitively directional. In one direction it sounds fuller in the other more recessed with much more reverbs.

Initially I wrongly selected the reverberant direction as the best one.

How long did you listen to each wire? I know from experience the Neotech needs some playing time to open up. Please don't tell me it's only my ears adjusting.

Circa 10 hours.

You'll never read a comment of mine on ears adjusting... :D

I see you mentioned the bathroom effect again. Are you contradicting yourself? I asked about it a few posts back, and you wrote that you don't have that. Now you claim you do.

No, probably I wasn't clear.

In all my Neotech cables (where direction is clearly indicated) I don't have any bathroom effect.

That silly effect is generated by the 15cm long wires that goes from the PCB to binding posts if used in the wrong direction... :rolleyes:

Every connector has an effect. Of course, if you use the clips on all your tests, it should affect every test equally, but you never know.
...
Do you use those nickel plated quick connect tabs on your PCB? Convenient for testing, but not good for sonics.

Obviously those quick connect have an influence but, as you already noted, it is constant for all wires so comparison is fair.

This is the 'test bench', when it is assembled wires are all soldered to connectors but I still use the quick connect on the PCB (mines are tinned brass and faston are gold plated pure copper)
 

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Since I think this controversial debate on wires should be quickly closed I've managed to anticipate my tests.

I've started listening to a plain stranded OFC cable.

It sounds good, full, timbre is natural.

Than I've listened again to OCC Alumunim.

More refined, bigger soundstage, a bit colder than OFC but presence suffered...

Neotech OCC copper was similar to alluminum but warmer and presence suffered a lot more (bathroom effect was here).

Something was wrong whith both OCC copper and OCC aluminum so I've tried reversing both (OCC wire is directional)

Now presence is much much better, sound is fuller with both but they mantain their timbre: Alluminum a bit cold and Copper a bit recessed.

I still think that the Neotech solid core OCC copper has something that not suits my taste but difference among it and aluminum is much less...

So I was wrong and I think it is a very good wire, just a bit recessed.

Also alluminum is a very good one but colder than I like.

In fact when I've mixed them (on on signal and the other on ground) I've obtained a more balanced sound.

Also Neotech OCC Silver balances well with Neotech OCC Copper.


The lesson I've learned is that having a clear reference (like the plain OFC wire) helps... ;)


Operative note for OCC users:

when you select the best sounding direction remember that the right one is that with fuller sound... :D
Not to enter into a cable debate, but It would like to draw you attached to our web site augene audio
Under Products -> cables
We don't have pictures up there yet. If anyone is interested in test driving these. Please contact me in private.
I only can select a few, and it also depends on how people describe in detail about differences in relations with what specific performances. Some people provided very good description when describe how vocals sound different, going into some subtle detail involving revealing skills of the vocalist.
 
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Really? Solder joints burn in? :confused:

Crystalline diffusion, rather than burn-in. It happens without any power applied, and has to do with the complex metallurgy of the Tin/Copper/Lead/Silver intermetalic interfaces. It takes a few hours for the grain to settle-in after solidifying from the liquid phase. It may be even more complex if RoHS elements or other impurities are present.

Unrelated, but today I was using an (allegedly) 63:37 solder that simply did not want to wet an ENIG (gold-nickel) pad, flux or no flux. I solved it by wetting a tinned Cu surface first, after which it had no difficulty wetting gold. Funny, isn't it?
 
A not so small step-up

also can i substitute in 10000uf 35v caps for c3,8? i got some nichicon kg's that i'd like to try out.


If someone is willing to improve C3/C8 a substantial upgrade are the Mundorf M-Lythic AG (MLPI).

When I'll re-release the updated 'Ultimate BOM' they will be the first choice for those positions.

The inprovement is general but the two more important parameters improved are a much more balanced timbre and cleanliness of high frequecies.

Their cost is quite double vs the TS-HA but, wow!
 
thanks, dario. i'll definitely be ordering them soon. does TI lm318 sound better than national semi's btw? if even op amps do affect the sonics, what's the best one that's easily available?

You're welcome :)

I suggest you to stick with National LM318, TI LM138 (according to Siva) still works but is a tiny bit less 'full'.

Mauro Penasa, the designer, told that only the National part would work as intented, the others have a different internal compensation.
 
does TI lm318 sound better than national semi's btw? if even op amps do affect the sonics, what's the best one that's easily available?

If you can, try both the NatSemi and TI LM318 - they're not expensive. YMMV - I prefer TI, but the sonic differences are not big.

Stay tuned for a discrete/hybrid module that I've designed called the LF01 - I'll post the schematic, pics and also make the modules/PCBs available shortly. It combines a SOIC-8 single-opamp (biased to Class-A) with a discrete BJT Class-A/AB output stage, and plugs into a DIP-8 socket.

The first prototype that I've built uses a NatSemi LM318M, 3 NPNs, a PNP and some passives, and plugs into a RevC LM318 socket (it was originally meant to drive low-impedance headphones, but it also works well for line-level and general-purpose amplification).

What's the advantage?

1) The output stage of the LM318 is biased to Class-A.
2) The loading on the output stage of the LM318 is almost constant current.
3) There's no current limiting in the discrete output stage, eliminating a source of hard clipping and distortion in some applications.

How does it sound?

Pretty good, from first my impressions - similar to a stock DIP-8 LM318, but with a slightly wider soundstage and better imaging in a RevC. I'm going to listen to it for a few weeks to check that there's no regression from a stock LM318.

Edit TI NE5534 also works with the LF01 in a RevC - it sounds darker and more laid-back, but the dynamics of the LM318 sound better. Actually, this is predictable from the specs of both opamps.
 
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sigh, i deleted this question two posts back but i gotta ask again since i absolutely adore what it does to the sound signature. has anyone tried running a fully burned in silmic ii by itself without c21? with my silmic that's only 30 hours 'old', it sounds overly warm and musical while missing all the refinement it used to have. there's no air, no timbre accuracy but the tone is now much like japanese vintage amps' that i'm a fan of. i'm wondering if the sound will once again become refined when the silmics get fully burned in.
 
has anyone tried running a fully burned in silmic ii by itself without c21? with my silmic that's only 30 hours 'old', it sounds overly warm and musical while missing all the refinement it used to have. there's no air, no timbre accuracy but the tone is now much like japanese vintage amps' that i'm a fan of. i'm wondering if the sound will once again become refined when the silmics get fully burned in.

Wait another 10-20 hours, BTW Silmic in that position needs the FKP2 bypass to sound right, otherwise it is too warm...