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Old 28th July 2011, 06:46 PM   #1341
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Default Always start from the basic...

Since I think this controversial debate on wires should be quickly closed I've managed to anticipate my tests.

I've started listening to a plain stranded OFC cable.

It sounds good, full, timbre is natural.

Than I've listened again to OCC Alumunim.

More refined, bigger soundstage, a bit colder than OFC but presence suffered...

Neotech OCC copper was similar to alluminum but warmer and presence suffered a lot more (bathroom effect was here).

Something was wrong whith both OCC copper and OCC aluminum so I've tried reversing both (OCC wire is directional)

Now presence is much much better, sound is fuller with both but they mantain their timbre: Alluminum a bit cold and Copper a bit recessed.

I still think that the Neotech solid core OCC copper has something that not suits my taste but difference among it and aluminum is much less...

So I was wrong and I think it is a very good wire, just a bit recessed.

Also alluminum is a very good one but colder than I like.

In fact when I've mixed them (on on signal and the other on ground) I've obtained a more balanced sound.

Also Neotech OCC Silver balances well with Neotech OCC Copper.


The lesson I've learned is that having a clear reference (like the plain OFC wire) helps...


Operative note for OCC users:

when you select the best sounding direction remember that the right one is that with fuller sound...
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Old 28th July 2011, 09:28 PM   #1342
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Dario,

Thanks for the thorough testing and interesting results, as usual. I have not ever heard the directionality of wire, but I have definitely heard the sound of wire (and everything else, even solder joints!) change in the span of the first dozen or so hours of use. Call it break-in or whatever, another controversial topic. How long did you listen to each wire? I know from experience the Neotech needs some playing time to open up. Please don't tell me it's only my ears adjusting.

I see you mentioned the bathroom effect again. Are you contradicting yourself? I asked about it a few posts back, and you wrote that you don't have that. Now you claim you do.

Here is something in reference to the MyRef, and all amps in general. I notice in the pic of your wire that you use clips on the ends. I think those may have some effect on the sound. Every connector has an effect. Of course, if you use the clips on all your tests, it should affect every test equally, but you never know. My in and out leads are all soldered to the board, and output wires are clamped by the mounting nuts, not soldered, onto the speaker binding posts. Do you use those nickel plated quick connect tabs on your PCB? Convenient for testing, but not good for sonics. Okay for power connection, I guess, but even there I use copper leads soldered to the board and wire nuts to connect to tranny.

Troy, power passes through all that aluminum wire, but not the signal (I hope).

I don't mind discussing off topic, as long as it still relates to audio. Everything is hooked up with wire, so it is an important topic, but it usually leads to pointless debates. Let's say everyone gets ONE more post about wire, and then we're done with it here. This is my last post on that subject.

Peace,
Tom E
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Old 28th July 2011, 10:28 PM   #1343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madisonears View Post
Thanks for the thorough testing and interesting results, as usual.
As usual, you're welcome , Tom

Quote:
Originally Posted by madisonears View Post
I have not ever heard the directionality of wire, but I have definitely heard the sound of wire (and everything else, even solder joints!) change in the span of the first dozen or so hours of use.
OCC wire is definitively directional. In one direction it sounds fuller in the other more recessed with much more reverbs.

Initially I wrongly selected the reverberant direction as the best one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madisonears View Post
How long did you listen to each wire? I know from experience the Neotech needs some playing time to open up. Please don't tell me it's only my ears adjusting.
Circa 10 hours.

You'll never read a comment of mine on ears adjusting...

Quote:
Originally Posted by madisonears View Post
I see you mentioned the bathroom effect again. Are you contradicting yourself? I asked about it a few posts back, and you wrote that you don't have that. Now you claim you do.
No, probably I wasn't clear.

In all my Neotech cables (where direction is clearly indicated) I don't have any bathroom effect.

That silly effect is generated by the 15cm long wires that goes from the PCB to binding posts if used in the wrong direction...

Quote:
Originally Posted by madisonears View Post
Every connector has an effect. Of course, if you use the clips on all your tests, it should affect every test equally, but you never know.
...
Do you use those nickel plated quick connect tabs on your PCB? Convenient for testing, but not good for sonics.
Obviously those quick connect have an influence but, as you already noted, it is constant for all wires so comparison is fair.

This is the 'test bench', when it is assembled wires are all soldered to connectors but I still use the quick connect on the PCB (mines are tinned brass and faston are gold plated pure copper)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg neotech.jpg (18.9 KB, 198 views)
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Last edited by ClaveFremen; 28th July 2011 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 29th July 2011, 06:03 AM   #1344
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaveFremen View Post
Since I think this controversial debate on wires should be quickly closed I've managed to anticipate my tests.

I've started listening to a plain stranded OFC cable.

It sounds good, full, timbre is natural.

Than I've listened again to OCC Alumunim.

More refined, bigger soundstage, a bit colder than OFC but presence suffered...

Neotech OCC copper was similar to alluminum but warmer and presence suffered a lot more (bathroom effect was here).

Something was wrong whith both OCC copper and OCC aluminum so I've tried reversing both (OCC wire is directional)

Now presence is much much better, sound is fuller with both but they mantain their timbre: Alluminum a bit cold and Copper a bit recessed.

I still think that the Neotech solid core OCC copper has something that not suits my taste but difference among it and aluminum is much less...

So I was wrong and I think it is a very good wire, just a bit recessed.

Also alluminum is a very good one but colder than I like.

In fact when I've mixed them (on on signal and the other on ground) I've obtained a more balanced sound.

Also Neotech OCC Silver balances well with Neotech OCC Copper.


The lesson I've learned is that having a clear reference (like the plain OFC wire) helps...


Operative note for OCC users:

when you select the best sounding direction remember that the right one is that with fuller sound...
Not to enter into a cable debate, but It would like to draw you attached to our web site augene audio
Under Products -> cables
We don't have pictures up there yet. If anyone is interested in test driving these. Please contact me in private.
I only can select a few, and it also depends on how people describe in detail about differences in relations with what specific performances. Some people provided very good description when describe how vocals sound different, going into some subtle detail involving revealing skills of the vocalist.
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Last edited by soongsc; 29th July 2011 at 06:12 AM.
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Old 29th July 2011, 10:22 AM   #1345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madisonears View Post
Dario,

I have definitely heard the sound of wire (and everything else, even solder joints!) change in the span of the first dozen or so hours of use.

Peace,
Tom E
Really? Solder joints burn in?
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Old 29th July 2011, 12:16 PM   #1346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HYPERTUNE View Post
Really? Solder joints burn in?
In this case I would not call it burn-in but in the first 2-4 hours it slightly changes but probably it's not the solder that 'burns-in' but the component, since it has been heated.
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Old 29th July 2011, 12:21 PM   #1347
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Sure, why doubting about it?
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Old 29th July 2011, 01:29 PM   #1348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HYPERTUNE View Post
Really? Solder joints burn in?
Crystalline diffusion, rather than burn-in. It happens without any power applied, and has to do with the complex metallurgy of the Tin/Copper/Lead/Silver intermetalic interfaces. It takes a few hours for the grain to settle-in after solidifying from the liquid phase. It may be even more complex if RoHS elements or other impurities are present.

Unrelated, but today I was using an (allegedly) 63:37 solder that simply did not want to wet an ENIG (gold-nickel) pad, flux or no flux. I solved it by wetting a tinned Cu surface first, after which it had no difficulty wetting gold. Funny, isn't it?
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Old 30th July 2011, 11:16 AM   #1349
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never mind this posting, please. i found my answer.

Last edited by PreSapian; 30th July 2011 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 30th July 2011, 12:23 PM   #1350
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Default A not so small step-up

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Originally Posted by PreSapian View Post
also can i substitute in 10000uf 35v caps for c3,8? i got some nichicon kg's that i'd like to try out.

If someone is willing to improve C3/C8 a substantial upgrade are the Mundorf M-Lythic AG (MLPI).

When I'll re-release the updated 'Ultimate BOM' they will be the first choice for those positions.

The inprovement is general but the two more important parameters improved are a much more balanced timbre and cleanliness of high frequecies.

Their cost is quite double vs the TS-HA but, wow!
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