Good News Nakamichi Lovers!

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I have not sourced a Denon changer yet to try it. but i have been doing some web searching and found that not all the denon units will work. just the older ones. Apparently the protocol used in the Nak's and the older Sony, denon and Fujitsu Ten/Eclipse decks is not used anymore.

I will say CAUTION. before plugging in any old changer into your deck. make sure it is compatible first. I know this is a bit difficult to do. but. the kenwood decks. are NOT compatible. as i understand it the clarion decks are not compatible. etc. many decks use that 13 pin plug but that does NOT mean they are wired the same or use the same protocol. PLEASE do not smoke your deck!~

I will be glad to share what info i know. I am no expert at this by any means, just a persistent searcher. but i sure would like to find someone with some real knowledge of cd changer protocols that could help us out!
 
Zero, I know for Clarion if you doo enough heavy googling, there is a page (actually, is it kenwood? anyways,) that lists the history of their protocols by letter (Kenwood A, Kenwood B, Kenwood D, etc), what made their protocols different (mostly seemed to be updated to add text for the MP3 units), how the handshakes worked, and even some basic command and control.

If you can find information that goes back far enough (to the "A" protocols), you should have the nak protocol.
 
I have researched the Clarion and Kenwood protocols and they are not the same. I am not a digital expert however. and until someone Bit Bangs the protocol bus to figure out the exact code i think were stuck. and that's really what its going to take is someone to sit down with the deck and a logic analyzer and figure out the code.

I did take an older Kenwood unit and the cable pinouts are completely different. but, i made an adapter box but it still doesn't work. the Kenwood and Nak speak different languages.


Attached is the nak pinout from the schematics of a CD-45Z deck. you will notice it has Data In, Data Out, Clock In, Clock Out, Reset and Mute lines as well as a DSP Select line.

Now i suspect that these are called different things by diff mfg. most have Clock, Data and a request line.
 

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Thank you for the docs. I'll add them to the collection! ;)

I assume the protocols were updated to allow for advanced features like text, which you will not have no matter what on the Nakamichi CD player. As I understand the protocol, anyways. Just not set up to understand it. That is why I assume your tests didnt work.

I have to wonder if it WOULD work if you used something like a mid 80's CD changer. Before the advent of CD titling and such.

Regardless, that is why IMO it's not feasible to hook up an ipod for ipod control to your nak. You'll inevitably have ot make an OEM control limitation, like mapping 6 playlists to the CDs and emulate a CD changer. Kind of weak control!
 
I have been digging in quite heavily again on this project. I am currently building a 13pin to 13pin break out box so that way we can use a logic analyzer to bit bang the bus and decode the Nak secret. which seems most likely to be a Sony secret more then a Nak secret as Nak used Sony chips for most of the CD control D/A functions etc. they used NEC microcontrollers and Sanyo IC's for everything else.

I managed to get a hold of an original service manual for the TD-45Z and for the MF-51 and while there were no major secrets revealed, there has been a tiny bit added to the pile here and there.

The Nak Decks work with the sony 10 disc changer so i would bet you could fool the nak deck into thinking you had a 99 disc changer for iPod control of play list's. but that's speculation. I have no doubt there will be some serious limitations controlling an iPod through the nak head unit. but all the basic commands should be workable.

1-Play/Pause
2-Track Up
3-Track Down
4-Disc (Playlist) up
5-Disc (Playlist) Down
6-Random
7-Repeat

Possibly
8-Track FF
9-track RW


And what I am really after, is to be able to build a translator that will send IR commands to my Delphi Skfi XM radio! Track U/D will be channel Up Down and Disc U/D will be Preset U/D that sort of thing! once i have the Nak Rosetta stone the rest is easy!

and, I want to play with building a translator box to work with Unilink/Ai-net cd changers!
 
bobduch said:
Have any of you gents ever hardwired new rca output cables into a Nak HU?
I have a TD560. Was thinking about hardwiring some Cardas Crosslink to replace the Nak rca's.

In all honesty it would not be worth it. while Nak decks are good. they are not THAT good! and if you are going to get into tweaking. there are a lot of other things i would do first before high end cables ever came into play. Upgrading op-amps, power supply, etc etc would come first. even then, it's still a Sony based car stereo! Don't get me wrong, i love my Nak(s) but save the Cardas cable for the high end home stuff where you have enough resolution to notice a real difference.
just my .02cents on the subject, your mileage may vary.
 
Update on my earlier post. So far we have managed to decode the Nak protocol and have figured out how the Disc, track and Time information is transmitted and now just need to capture and decode the operational controls. I also picked up a very cool USBee SX Logic analyzer that will make this very much easier to do!


ZC
 
Since I get Cardas and Eichmann at dealer cost I figured it would be worth it if not too difficult. Just didn't know if it would be too tight getting the Cardas in there.
I run the changer to DAC to Audio Refinement dc powered (thanks Matt at ID). The deck (FM and cassette):eek: also runs to the AR piece.
 
Oh yeah, the USBee SX is an awesome unit with very advanced software not found in any other USB type logic analyzer. and the price is killer. they are very responsive there. shipped same day. But call them rather then web order. there web system screwed up and charged me for over night shipping when i wanted ground. the fixed it right away but it was still several days before the money was back in my account.

The faceplace communications protocol is very simple. find the data sheet for the main system controller and it is all explained in there.

But i am curious WHY you want the faceplate protocol???


Zc
 
I have a dumb question concerning your original project:

The Nakamichi faceplate communicates to the main microcontroller using two standard resistor ladders on all the faceplate buttons.

Wouldn't it make the most sense to interrupt those lines with a relay that gets activated using the cd-changer ACC line and sent to your own micro for translation?

That way anytime you activate the CD-changer source (AUX2) the faceplate buttons (select ones anyways) are actually hooked up to your alternate source?

you do not get visual feedback through the faceplate LCD, but if your XM device has its own display, it shouldn't matter anyways.

right?


-------------------

I wanted to do this with the AUX1 output, but I can't figure out how to interrupt the faceplate commands since there is no digital output on with the AUX output. FM has the power antenna, CDC has the CDCaux output, but there is no distinguishing power lines between the CD source and the AUX1 source. (and bummer! AUX follows CD)
 
Zero Cool said:

But i am curious WHY you want the faceplate protocol???


Zc


MY project involves making my MB-100 look like my factory radio. Since the buttons are SO EASY to interface with anything (I made my own wired steering wheel controls), I wanted to remove the MB-100 faceplate and mount the naked CD unit behind my factory faceplate and interface the factory buttons to it.

But how to display the tracks and whatnot?

my OEM player has an 11 digit 5x7 display. so it's not a direct interface with the alphanumeric characters from the nak LCD. And I don't even know how the special characters are interfaced, for BOTH the nak LCD and the OEM LCD.

But that's my dream. Nak sound, OEM aesthetics.
 
well the Nak CDC protocol has all the disc, track and time information and is easy to decode.

The XM control is one thing, and frankly very easy, the bigger thing is iPod control and possibly BOTH at the same time.

The nak deck, judging by the protocol should be able to display up to 99 disc's and 99 tracks per disk. for iPod control that means the ability to have 99 play list's with up to 99 tracks per play list.

it "Should" also be possible to arraign it so that say, disc's 1-5 are the MF-51 changer, Disc's say 6-12 are the XM presets, and 12-99 are iPod play list's. and I could have the unit auto switch between all 3 devices.

I am looking to make this a marketable easy user installed product(s). hacking into the faceplate and all that is not something the average user will want to do. but simply plugging in an external box is easy and reversible.

now for you, the Nak decks have an iR sensor and tying in one line to the output of the sensor to a MCU that also connects to the factory controls is a pretty simple thing to do. trying to get the faceplate to display on another display is going to be pretty hard to do without a MCU. But tying in to the clock, data and ground lines on the Naks, MCu to an external MCU like a PIC or an Arduino board or something would be very easy for you to do. you could then interface the external MCU to any type of display & controls you wanted.

You could mount a 3.5mm trs jack on the back of the radio that plugs into a small external box that houses the MCU. then run wires from the stock faceplate or steering wheel controls or both to the MCU box. little bit of code and your done.

heck for that matter you could hollow out the factory radio, put the MCU inside and mount the MB-100 in the glove box or elsewhere!
 
man, way ahead of you on 80% of that! I already have the controls working (without an IR sender I might add!), it's JUST the display I need.

I'll definitely be using an MCU, but to know how to interface, well you said yourself, very difficult!

Clock data and ground. Is that all that's required to pull the display information out of the nak MCU? That I can find out HOW they are communicating by trying this: "The faceplace communications protocol is very simple. find the data sheet for the main system controller and it is all explained in there." ?

That sounds almost too good to be true!

------------------

As for your project, that too almost sounds too good to be true. That means you can beak the data line to the LCD and display anything you want. Like track titles or iPod album lists simply by intercepting that LCD data line and feeding whatever you want into it. Cool idea. Way better than having to remember what playlist number controls what!
 
whiterabbit said:
man, way ahead of you on 80% of that! I already have the controls working (without an IR sender I might add!), it's JUST the display I need.

I'll definitely be using an MCU, but to know how to interface, well you said yourself, very difficult!

Clock data and ground. Is that all that's required to pull the display information out of the nak MCU? That I can find out HOW they are communicating by trying this: "The faceplace communications protocol is very simple. find the data sheet for the main system controller and it is all explained in there." ?

That sounds almost too good to be true!

------------------

As for your project, that too almost sounds too good to be true. That means you can beak the data line to the LCD and display anything you want. Like track titles or iPod album lists simply by intercepting that LCD data line and feeding whatever you want into it. Cool idea. Way better than having to remember what playlist number controls what!

Clock, Data and Ground is all you need to control ALL of the naks functions. you can send commands to the internal MCU and have it do anything the front faceplate would do! it would be even easier to just use the IR line. that's just signal and ground and then you can do anything the remote would do, which is pretty much anything the faceplate does.

The hard part and its not even that hard, its figuring out what type of display the stock radio has and what communication is needed to talk to it from a MCU. once you have that down the rest is pretty easy.

The stock Nak faceplate however...has limited characters. the display is dedicated so titles and such are not possible. and i will be emulation and external CD changer, albeit one with 99 discs etc. I will not be messing around with faceplate stuff.
 
CD 700

I am also looking to hook up an ipod to my CD700. Given that the CD changer controls are common to older Sony CD changers, is it possible there is an IPOD integration kit out there for old Sony decks that we could use/adapt? I have heard of but cannot find an adapter from the old Sony 13-pin to unilink. from unilink there are are a lot of integration options.
 
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