They're the same, what matters for output is displacement, which is equal to cone area * excursion. Sensitivity only comes into play when you're talking about how much power is required to reach a certain level of displacement.
The reason several "short throw" speakers are winning spl competitions is because you're only looking at Xmax, which is the linear excursion. Most spl subs have an extremely peaky BL which gives them a small Xmag and therefore a small Xmax, but their Xmech is very, very large. That means that while they can't move too far linearly, they can move very far physically, and since spl competitors don't care about distortion that's fine.
The reason several "short throw" speakers are winning spl competitions is because you're only looking at Xmax, which is the linear excursion. Most spl subs have an extremely peaky BL which gives them a small Xmag and therefore a small Xmax, but their Xmech is very, very large. That means that while they can't move too far linearly, they can move very far physically, and since spl competitors don't care about distortion that's fine.
Xmag = linear excursion of the motor
This corresponds to the point where the BL (the "strength" of the motor) has fallen to 70% of its rest value. What this means is that when it's near 0mm excursion, the cone is moving as if it's going to reproduce the input wave in its entirety. However, as the cone moves farther and farther from rest, the motor loses strength and the peak of the wave gets rounded off. This introduces harmonics and intermodulation distortion into the signal, which isn't good for sound quality obviously.
Xsus = linear excursion of the suspension
This corresponds to the point where the suspension's compliance has dropped to...25%? <unsure> of its rest value. Basically the same thing happens to the sound as at Xmag.
Xmax = linear excursion of the driver
This is the lesser of Xmag and Xsus, it is simply the point at which a noticeable amount of distortion is starting to entire the sound either because of the BL dropping or the suspension losing compliance.
Xmech = the maximum excursion of the driver
Linearity has no weight here, this is the point at which things start to get damaged. This could be when the spider or surround pulls taught and is about to rip, it could be when the former crashes into the top plate, etc. This is what matters in spl competition, and it's almost completely unrelated to Xmax (it will be greater than Xmax, naturally, but it could be 5% greater or 200% greater, there's no telling)
When you're looking at these "short excursion" drivers that are winning these spl competitions, take a peak at their mechanical excursion instead of their linear excursion and you may start to see why. Take the DD subs for example, they hold several records for spl but they only have a ~12mm Xmax. Now there are plenty of drivers with an Xmax of 30mm but they aren't as loud...why? Because the DD subs have a very peaky BL (DD 9515 vs JL 10w7), their motor moves out of linearity very quickly, which gives them a small Xmag and therefore a small Xmax, but the 95xx series DD subs can move almost 40mm one-way before hitting their mechanical limits (Xmech). So at first glance it appears to be a short excursion driver, and when you're talking about linear excursion it is, but when you push it into the non-linear range, as they do in spl competition, it's actually a very very long excursion sub.
This corresponds to the point where the BL (the "strength" of the motor) has fallen to 70% of its rest value. What this means is that when it's near 0mm excursion, the cone is moving as if it's going to reproduce the input wave in its entirety. However, as the cone moves farther and farther from rest, the motor loses strength and the peak of the wave gets rounded off. This introduces harmonics and intermodulation distortion into the signal, which isn't good for sound quality obviously.
Xsus = linear excursion of the suspension
This corresponds to the point where the suspension's compliance has dropped to...25%? <unsure> of its rest value. Basically the same thing happens to the sound as at Xmag.
Xmax = linear excursion of the driver
This is the lesser of Xmag and Xsus, it is simply the point at which a noticeable amount of distortion is starting to entire the sound either because of the BL dropping or the suspension losing compliance.
Xmech = the maximum excursion of the driver
Linearity has no weight here, this is the point at which things start to get damaged. This could be when the spider or surround pulls taught and is about to rip, it could be when the former crashes into the top plate, etc. This is what matters in spl competition, and it's almost completely unrelated to Xmax (it will be greater than Xmax, naturally, but it could be 5% greater or 200% greater, there's no telling)
When you're looking at these "short excursion" drivers that are winning these spl competitions, take a peak at their mechanical excursion instead of their linear excursion and you may start to see why. Take the DD subs for example, they hold several records for spl but they only have a ~12mm Xmax. Now there are plenty of drivers with an Xmax of 30mm but they aren't as loud...why? Because the DD subs have a very peaky BL (DD 9515 vs JL 10w7), their motor moves out of linearity very quickly, which gives them a small Xmag and therefore a small Xmax, but the 95xx series DD subs can move almost 40mm one-way before hitting their mechanical limits (Xmech). So at first glance it appears to be a short excursion driver, and when you're talking about linear excursion it is, but when you push it into the non-linear range, as they do in spl competition, it's actually a very very long excursion sub.
Better bass in relation to what?
Realistic bass has very little to do with large or small cones or the excursion.
A woofer is one part of a system and for me to say better bass, you need to mention the enclosures construction, the amplifier and when you say better bass, do you mean accurate to the recording or just impressive sounding?
It sounds like you want low rider bass and for that the larger the excursion and the larger the cone area and a correctly specified enclosure will give you what you want, thats not better bass, thats just really deep high output bass.
You can not have better bass than what has been recorded on the disc, so i need to know what you want to answer your question, hope this helps.
Realistic bass has very little to do with large or small cones or the excursion.
A woofer is one part of a system and for me to say better bass, you need to mention the enclosures construction, the amplifier and when you say better bass, do you mean accurate to the recording or just impressive sounding?
It sounds like you want low rider bass and for that the larger the excursion and the larger the cone area and a correctly specified enclosure will give you what you want, thats not better bass, thats just really deep high output bass.
You can not have better bass than what has been recorded on the disc, so i need to know what you want to answer your question, hope this helps.
It’s hard to explain, and it depends on a lot of things (box type/size, speaker parameters, amp etc.) but on average in their correct size box running equal power equal quality sub which one will pound the best?
I hade a 10” sub under my computer desk and it just vibrated the desk when I added a 12” as well wow man it vibrated the whole place knocking things over that’s what I want but much more the same as watching a movie and the explosion vibrate the room so realistic.
I just want the WOW factor (vibration)
I hope I explained it correct.
I hade a 10” sub under my computer desk and it just vibrated the desk when I added a 12” as well wow man it vibrated the whole place knocking things over that’s what I want but much more the same as watching a movie and the explosion vibrate the room so realistic.
I just want the WOW factor (vibration)
I hope I explained it correct.
had 12" and 10
I also had 2 12" and 10" yesterday for a test, it went well too
I use my pc for everything I have no TV, DVD, stereo, vcr, recorder its all on my pc its good for the wow factor you should see my friends faces (priceless) and it puts so much realism in games and DVD movies AND I love the feeling of low bass like when there’s thunder you can feel the shock wave travel through you body it’s a nice feeling without hurting your hearing.
I also had 2 12" and 10" yesterday for a test, it went well too
I use my pc for everything I have no TV, DVD, stereo, vcr, recorder its all on my pc its good for the wow factor you should see my friends faces (priceless) and it puts so much realism in games and DVD movies AND I love the feeling of low bass like when there’s thunder you can feel the shock wave travel through you body it’s a nice feeling without hurting your hearing.
Hayden said:
Your sound like a computer expert Hayden, i need some advice on sound cards.
Whats the best kind for 5.1 or 7.1?
i want high volt pre-outs so it has a nice clear dynamic sound with no hiss, i can get independant amps for each channel.
My PC has no sound card, i got it from a yard sale a couple of months ago and its a junk really but i want to upgrade it.
I don't have lots of money but i am willing to spend a fair amount on an important part like sound.
What do you recommend and why?
What we actually hear as "Bass" has most of its energy between 100Hz and 2Khz.
It's actually quite hard to hear or feel bass inside a car because these speakers with >15mm excursion that are so in fashion nowadays only produce rumble, and people relies in tiny speakers placed in factory mounting holes to produce audible bass frequencies.
It's actually quite hard to hear or feel bass inside a car because these speakers with >15mm excursion that are so in fashion nowadays only produce rumble, and people relies in tiny speakers placed in factory mounting holes to produce audible bass frequencies.
Eva, you are actually right about the rumble (if at that). I see people tuning these ported boxes with subs that have a high xmas to around 28-32hz so after the vehicle has sucked up a good amount of energy it then retunes the frequency even lower, you aren't hearing much at all but most of it will be felt. These are people listening to high bass type of music not really the SQ type. Boxes like that usually run out of juice on the top end and are left with nothing to blend in with the mids, so there is usually a void. I have a box that is 4cf, utilizes four 4" aerotubes (external) tuned to 43hz, in car tuning shows up at around 38hz and has full authority from below 20 to around 75-80hz, no one note wonder here! I won't say what this one 15" does on the TL (don't want to see people cry) but needless to say, I don't need two. Polo..
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Yes I do know a lot about computers I studied I.T. for a wile and as a hobby.
I would go for a Creative Audigy 2 zs or the platinum if you want optical and added extras etc.... the Audigy 2 zs is a nice quality fairly cheap card good brand.
There are better cards out there for producers and audio programmers but you need to pay for them, the X-FI card from Creative has 64mb ram on board its mainly used for games to store samples etc to improve performance it is slightly better but I have a Audigy 2 sz and I like it.
As for 5.1 / 7.1 some cards state it does 7.1 BUT it’s only digital out not line level so read the specs well first.
I use the fronts as my headphones and the rears as my external tower speakers and the centre, sub and rear centre as my subwoofer channels I have 4 12” and a 10” for subs
http://www.wpc-fr.net/images/articl...digy-2-en-version-ve/art_sbaudigy2zs_prod.jpg
I would go for a Creative Audigy 2 zs or the platinum if you want optical and added extras etc.... the Audigy 2 zs is a nice quality fairly cheap card good brand.
There are better cards out there for producers and audio programmers but you need to pay for them, the X-FI card from Creative has 64mb ram on board its mainly used for games to store samples etc to improve performance it is slightly better but I have a Audigy 2 sz and I like it.
As for 5.1 / 7.1 some cards state it does 7.1 BUT it’s only digital out not line level so read the specs well first.
I use the fronts as my headphones and the rears as my external tower speakers and the centre, sub and rear centre as my subwoofer channels I have 4 12” and a 10” for subs
http://www.wpc-fr.net/images/articl...digy-2-en-version-ve/art_sbaudigy2zs_prod.jpg
The cabin of the car does not have flat frequency response at all. A flat system placed in a cabin will be progressively boosted below 100Hz with a slope that approaches 12dB/oct. and extends down to approx. 30Hz. This phenomena causes the bass to be almost unavoidably "rumbly" in conventional systems. To overcome that, any bass system intended to be placed inside a car should be designed to suffer a complimentary roll-off, so that outside the car it has to show approx. 6dB higher sensitivity at 80Hz than at 40Hz.
6th-order band-pass enclosures are great because with proper design they allow to approach that tilted-downwards frequency response quite well. Front chamber has to be tuned around 105Hz and slightly oversized to produce additional boost, this is going to require a port with a huge area and a small lenght. Rear chamber has to be tuned around 37Hz for optimum usage of driver Xmax, and it has to be slightly undersized to produce premature roll-off, and intentionally reducing Qb by placing the port in a corner may be useful sometimes. Very peaky responses should be avoided as this makes summing the output of the box with the output of the front system much harder.
Both reflex ducs *must* lead to the cabin of the car, as any bass radiated inside the trunk will be badly coloured and trashed by standing waves and then it will make its way into the cabin, thus ruining any attempt to fool the listener into thinking that all the bass comes from the front system.
With such systems, clean bass output may be achieved between 30Hz and 200Hz.
6th-order band-pass enclosures are great because with proper design they allow to approach that tilted-downwards frequency response quite well. Front chamber has to be tuned around 105Hz and slightly oversized to produce additional boost, this is going to require a port with a huge area and a small lenght. Rear chamber has to be tuned around 37Hz for optimum usage of driver Xmax, and it has to be slightly undersized to produce premature roll-off, and intentionally reducing Qb by placing the port in a corner may be useful sometimes. Very peaky responses should be avoided as this makes summing the output of the box with the output of the front system much harder.
Both reflex ducs *must* lead to the cabin of the car, as any bass radiated inside the trunk will be badly coloured and trashed by standing waves and then it will make its way into the cabin, thus ruining any attempt to fool the listener into thinking that all the bass comes from the front system.
With such systems, clean bass output may be achieved between 30Hz and 200Hz.
, i dont need 7.1 but 5.1 would be nice for watching block busters some times.- Status
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