Sealed.
Sealed boxes offer fewer variables, and tend to be more predictable in a car environment particularly. They offer faster transient response, and to boot take up less room and are easier to build.
Ported boxes technically offer lower distortion, and don't have the nasty habbit of leaving my subs at high excursion whenever I drive up or down some of the long hills that I've been known to drive over. (I can get out of the car at the top of a hill, get out and open the back of the car and SEE the subs pushed out for about a minute or so after I get to the top. That box is SEALED. -- I can't watch it happen if I've been playing music while driving though.) Ported boxes are also more efficient down to the tuning frequency, below which response drops off much faster than with a sealed box.
Over all, the advantages of the sealed boxes heavily outweigh the drawbacks, but that's to me. I'm not looking for a few extra dB of efficiency, and the music that I listen to is better enhanced by something with a fast transient response, and smooth rolloff into both the subsonic and midbass.
Sealed boxes offer fewer variables, and tend to be more predictable in a car environment particularly. They offer faster transient response, and to boot take up less room and are easier to build.
Ported boxes technically offer lower distortion, and don't have the nasty habbit of leaving my subs at high excursion whenever I drive up or down some of the long hills that I've been known to drive over. (I can get out of the car at the top of a hill, get out and open the back of the car and SEE the subs pushed out for about a minute or so after I get to the top. That box is SEALED. -- I can't watch it happen if I've been playing music while driving though.) Ported boxes are also more efficient down to the tuning frequency, below which response drops off much faster than with a sealed box.
Over all, the advantages of the sealed boxes heavily outweigh the drawbacks, but that's to me. I'm not looking for a few extra dB of efficiency, and the music that I listen to is better enhanced by something with a fast transient response, and smooth rolloff into both the subsonic and midbass.
Ported=less power to move air,boxes are colse to twice the size of sealed,and more boom
Sealed=more accurate,smaller box.
Myself i perfer sealed.
their are so many variables in taste of music and the environment
that your listening in.like pickups seem to work better with small drivers in sealed boxs.autos with trunks seems to work well with large drivers in ported boxes.hatchbacks does well with either.
If your wanting recommendation give a little bit more info and maybe someone will be able to help you out.
Donnie
Sealed=more accurate,smaller box.
Myself i perfer sealed.
their are so many variables in taste of music and the environment
that your listening in.like pickups seem to work better with small drivers in sealed boxs.autos with trunks seems to work well with large drivers in ported boxes.hatchbacks does well with either.
If your wanting recommendation give a little bit more info and maybe someone will be able to help you out.
Donnie
Actually the inverse is true; to achieve the same response with the same driver a ported box will usually be far smaller; that's the reason for the popularity of ported boxes; if the opposite were true no one would use them. Model a woofer response in WinISD for both cases and 90% of the time the vented box is smaller than sealed to reach the same f3.
Precisely. Now consider this: a sealed box rolls off at 12dB/octave below f3, so assuming the two alignments have the same base SPL the sealed box in this case will be down 12dB below F3 at 31.5 Hz, and compared to the vented box will be quite anemic. In the average home that would be very poor response (and should tell you why Auto Subs don't always work well outside of their intended environment). But both boxes are subject to cabin gain at 12dB per octave at any frequency where the longest interior dimension is less than 1/2 wavelength; at 8 feet for the average car that means from 70 Hz. Now which sounds better in a car?
The sealed, as despite its higher f3 the cabin gain balances that out, while the vented gets too high an SPL in the bottom end. It's not being sealed that makes it better, but in this case where a higher f3 is desired sealed in a small box does the trick. Vented in a small box wouldn't work as well as VBs rolloff at 24dB/octave below f3, so cabin gain would be inadequate to balance that out.
And the long and short of it is that a sealed box in a car audio environment is typically superior to a ported one.
I actually carefully measured cabin gain in my car before designing my box, then designed the parameters for the subwoofers to give me an inverse of the cabin gain curve. I actually made the boxes smaller than the manufacturer recommendation, and in free air they'd be pretty weak. In the car their f3 is about 23Hz, although there is a slight "bump" at 40Hz.
Since this thread is in the "Car Audio" forum, I assumed that the question referred to a car audio installation. Take advantage of cabin gain.
In a home environment, a properly designed ported box will give you more bass extension, and lower distortion (Although somewhat weaker transient response) and is generally a winner.
One thing to be aware of with ported boxes is that response falls much more sharply below tuning frequency, as does power handling. As such, your ported box with an f3 of 34Hz isn't going to work as well as even my small sealed boxes at 25Hz, let alone 20Hz. While mine will be weak, the ported box will be weaker, and it would actually endanger the woofer to attempt to drive it at those frequencies.
Of course, in the end, this is my opinion. A car sound system is a collection of trade-offs, and unless someone ccomes up with clear and convincing proof of one or the other type of enclosure being superior in all respects, people will continue to have their own opinions and choices.
I actually carefully measured cabin gain in my car before designing my box, then designed the parameters for the subwoofers to give me an inverse of the cabin gain curve. I actually made the boxes smaller than the manufacturer recommendation, and in free air they'd be pretty weak. In the car their f3 is about 23Hz, although there is a slight "bump" at 40Hz.
Since this thread is in the "Car Audio" forum, I assumed that the question referred to a car audio installation. Take advantage of cabin gain.
In a home environment, a properly designed ported box will give you more bass extension, and lower distortion (Although somewhat weaker transient response) and is generally a winner.
One thing to be aware of with ported boxes is that response falls much more sharply below tuning frequency, as does power handling. As such, your ported box with an f3 of 34Hz isn't going to work as well as even my small sealed boxes at 25Hz, let alone 20Hz. While mine will be weak, the ported box will be weaker, and it would actually endanger the woofer to attempt to drive it at those frequencies.
Of course, in the end, this is my opinion. A car sound system is a collection of trade-offs, and unless someone ccomes up with clear and convincing proof of one or the other type of enclosure being superior in all respects, people will continue to have their own opinions and choices.
That would still be a horn. It does suffer from being larger than most autosub boxes at 14x14x32 inches, though that's certainly not larger than any other autosub boxes by any means.
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Hardly qualifies as all respects.
The sealed box is more flexible, is (by your own statement) smaller, leaving me more cargo space. In an automotive environment, I call those signifigant advantages.
On top of that, the horn (being basically a bandpass with a variable port) exhibits moderate to large group delays, has a steep rolloff at the upper frequency boundary which is hard to blend into the midbass or mid, and still has that nasty response drop at the low frequencies, making it hard to suit for really low bass.
A horn is a very efficient enclosure, which makes is excellent for SPL, and is cleaner than a bandpass, but still maintains some of the bandpass boxes unpleasant characteristics. For example, map phase shift vs frequency, and let's see how you plan to blend that nicely into the midbass.
Like I said before, it's all trade-off. A response graph doesn't show group delay, distortion, or other artefacts, it merely graphs SPL vs frequency. You don't get something for nothing.
The sealed box is more flexible, is (by your own statement) smaller, leaving me more cargo space. In an automotive environment, I call those signifigant advantages.
On top of that, the horn (being basically a bandpass with a variable port) exhibits moderate to large group delays, has a steep rolloff at the upper frequency boundary which is hard to blend into the midbass or mid, and still has that nasty response drop at the low frequencies, making it hard to suit for really low bass.
A horn is a very efficient enclosure, which makes is excellent for SPL, and is cleaner than a bandpass, but still maintains some of the bandpass boxes unpleasant characteristics. For example, map phase shift vs frequency, and let's see how you plan to blend that nicely into the midbass.
Like I said before, it's all trade-off. A response graph doesn't show group delay, distortion, or other artefacts, it merely graphs SPL vs frequency. You don't get something for nothing.
Agreed. I don't have one of these in my own car, but I'm content with 105dB levels.
Not if your crossing over where you should be, at 80-100Hz, and its response is quite adequate to say the least even higher. The upper f3 of 250Hz is a good octave above where the LP crossover should be set even worst case to blend with midbasses with too high an f3.
Again, moot with a proper crossover frequency. Those factors have no bearing in a small space with non-directional frequencies.
SPL aside this is a horn's biggest advantage, as the power requirements from the amp and excursion requirements from the driver are so drastically reduced that distortion is well below what any other alignment is capable of.
Not at all; the response is perfectly suited to all forms of music, giving precisely the desired response for bass instruments (as a bass player with 40 years professional experience I know a bit about bass) with the crossover at 80-100Hz. For HT use setting the feed lowpass filter at 50 Hz results in +,- 3dB response from 20 to 80 Hz at 95dB/SPL/watt, which you'd be hard pressed to beat with any other speaker, especially considering the $70 build cost of this one.
True. It takes some woodworking smarts and about twice the plywood that a direct radiator of the same size would use, and the willingness to lose about a grocery bag's worth of cargo space. That's compared to a direct radiator sub with 10dB less sensitivity; to get the sensitivity that this horn has using direct radiator or vented bandpass boxes you'd end up with something even larger and you'd need tens time the amp power to drive it with.
Well, suffice it to say that I don't agree.
I've built several horns of various designs. I've found some that were quite good for home use, including a (quite large) folded horn design that worked quite well. It still had group delay issues, though. I was not able to completely get around the phase shift problem. Although the crossover frequency itself was okay, a bit above that the phase shift started giving cancellation problems with the midbass speakers, because the shift alters with frequency. At 80Hz, the response was nice, but there was a dip at 100Hz, and a bump at 125 because of the relative phase shift between the sub and midbass dreivers. This does not happen with sealed or single reflex ported enclosures. Simulate the map for both the sub and midbass.
Personally, I found the slower transient response and low rolloff characteristics to be an irritation.
With my small sealed boxes, and powering my pair of 10" subs with a total of 120W (60W/sub) I'm still getting SPL levels of 129-130 dBSPL in my car. That's NOT a lot of amplifier, and more than loud enough for my tastes.
It's a trade-off.
This is my opinion. There is no "ideal" enclosure. Horns, bandpass, ported and sealed all do certain things very well, but always at a cost.
For my purposes, amplifier power is cheap, and readily available. I do a large part of my listening late at night, and almost always watch movies after the kids are in bed, so I can't turn it up then anyways. I don't need high efficiency for a subwoofer there. (Although I'm using a slot loaded enclosure.) In my car, space is at a premium. I do a lot of driving, and often need every availalble litre of space. I don't want to have to remove the subs to carry stuff, nor do I want to drive the minivan on long highway trips. (I like my car, as you may have guessed. ) I have enough power available. I could use otherwise unusable space in the back of the car. That choice was a no-brainer.
Like I said, you'd need to prove that any one enclosure is superior in all respects. This is my opinion.
I've built several horns of various designs. I've found some that were quite good for home use, including a (quite large) folded horn design that worked quite well. It still had group delay issues, though. I was not able to completely get around the phase shift problem. Although the crossover frequency itself was okay, a bit above that the phase shift started giving cancellation problems with the midbass speakers, because the shift alters with frequency. At 80Hz, the response was nice, but there was a dip at 100Hz, and a bump at 125 because of the relative phase shift between the sub and midbass dreivers. This does not happen with sealed or single reflex ported enclosures. Simulate the map for both the sub and midbass.
Personally, I found the slower transient response and low rolloff characteristics to be an irritation.
With my small sealed boxes, and powering my pair of 10" subs with a total of 120W (60W/sub) I'm still getting SPL levels of 129-130 dBSPL in my car. That's NOT a lot of amplifier, and more than loud enough for my tastes.
It's a trade-off.
This is my opinion. There is no "ideal" enclosure. Horns, bandpass, ported and sealed all do certain things very well, but always at a cost.
For my purposes, amplifier power is cheap, and readily available. I do a large part of my listening late at night, and almost always watch movies after the kids are in bed, so I can't turn it up then anyways. I don't need high efficiency for a subwoofer there. (Although I'm using a slot loaded enclosure.) In my car, space is at a premium. I do a lot of driving, and often need every availalble litre of space. I don't want to have to remove the subs to carry stuff, nor do I want to drive the minivan on long highway trips. (I like my car, as you may have guessed.
) I have enough power available. I could use otherwise unusable space in the back of the car. That choice was a no-brainer.Like I said, you'd need to prove that any one enclosure is superior in all respects. This is my opinion.
exn,
these guys have gotten over my head to the point of where I`m wondering if what I`ve been doing for the last 15yrs,could have been better.but thats another topic all together.
being the best in all respects is tough.lets look at it in another way.what type of car or truck are you putting it in?
what do you what from the system?
how much money do you have to spend on it?
how much room are you willing to give up for the box?
after 50+ systems alot of trophies and alittle money,i`ve seen alot of different systems.and in the end run the only person you have to please is you self.if the system doesn`t sound good to you then you`ve failed and you have to start all over
these guys have gotten over my head to the point of where I`m wondering if what I`ve been doing for the last 15yrs,could have been better.but thats another topic all together.
being the best in all respects is tough.lets look at it in another way.what type of car or truck are you putting it in?
what do you what from the system?
how much money do you have to spend on it?
how much room are you willing to give up for the box?
after 50+ systems alot of trophies and alittle money,i`ve seen alot of different systems.and in the end run the only person you have to please is you self.if the system doesn`t sound good to you then you`ve failed and you have to start all over
None of mine, I'm sure, but that's OK. 90% of my designs are pro-sound.
Agreed, that's why I have a Line Array/TL for my HT mains, a horn for my HT sub, a sealed MTM for my HT center and omnidirectional surrounds.
I have a single 8 incher 'invisibly' integrated into a rear quarter panel, driven by 50 watts. It takes up zero cargo space. Not everything I design is for my own tastes, but for those who want to bother the neighbors three counties away and cause cattle stampedes only a horn will do.
Loud is in the ear of the beholder.
A suburban won't have the same kind of cabin gain that my Supra has, because it's much larger.
Good sound will also depend on what kind of music that you are listening to. For most types of music a basic ported enclosure should work well in your Suburban. So will a horn. A sealed enclosure might need to be a bit larger than "recommended" but not that much.
Amplifier power is going to make a lot of difference, as well. Good clean power will always sound better (And let your woofer last longer, too) than nasty clipping power. A quality amplifier will make a large difference.
You're not exactly space limited in the Suburban, so it also depends on what kind of speaker you're going to load into it. A single 15" will work well in just about any kind of enclosure.
The next question is who is building the box. If you have an experienced box maker building the box, then you can go with a more complicated design. A sealed box is a good project for a beginner, and can more easily use fibreglass to make a nice curved panel, or fit into tight spaces for maximum use of space in the vehicle. A ported box needs more precisely measured volumes, and therefore requires a more experienced builder. While a ported box can use fibreglass construction techniques, it is exponentially more difficult to get it just right. A horn or bandpass box needs to be very precise, and is not recommended for beginners to even attempt. Use of fibreglass panels for these is practically unheard of, due to the exacting nature of volume calculation required for it to work. (It can be done, but would be very hard -- expensive if you get a pro to do it.)
The right combination of speaker, enclosure, vehicle and amplifier can always be made to sound good, regardless of the enclosure TYPE. Some types of enclosure do some things better than others, but no type is superior in all respects. And of course this is all good in theory, but in practice, someone has to actually BUILD the thing, and if that's you, you should go with what you can actually build well. A poorly made enclosure will always sound poor.
A suburban won't have the same kind of cabin gain that my Supra has, because it's much larger.
Good sound will also depend on what kind of music that you are listening to. For most types of music a basic ported enclosure should work well in your Suburban. So will a horn. A sealed enclosure might need to be a bit larger than "recommended" but not that much.
Amplifier power is going to make a lot of difference, as well. Good clean power will always sound better (And let your woofer last longer, too) than nasty clipping power. A quality amplifier will make a large difference.
You're not exactly space limited in the Suburban, so it also depends on what kind of speaker you're going to load into it. A single 15" will work well in just about any kind of enclosure.
The next question is who is building the box. If you have an experienced box maker building the box, then you can go with a more complicated design. A sealed box is a good project for a beginner, and can more easily use fibreglass to make a nice curved panel, or fit into tight spaces for maximum use of space in the vehicle. A ported box needs more precisely measured volumes, and therefore requires a more experienced builder. While a ported box can use fibreglass construction techniques, it is exponentially more difficult to get it just right. A horn or bandpass box needs to be very precise, and is not recommended for beginners to even attempt. Use of fibreglass panels for these is practically unheard of, due to the exacting nature of volume calculation required for it to work. (It can be done, but would be very hard -- expensive if you get a pro to do it.)
The right combination of speaker, enclosure, vehicle and amplifier can always be made to sound good, regardless of the enclosure TYPE. Some types of enclosure do some things better than others, but no type is superior in all respects. And of course this is all good in theory, but in practice, someone has to actually BUILD the thing, and if that's you, you should go with what you can actually build well. A poorly made enclosure will always sound poor.
that's why basic box building instructions say you need to have a tiny hole somewhere to equalize inside and outside pressure. a pinhole will do and will not affect tuning.
is this about the horn? can I see some box plans/ cross section look of the horn (the one in the picture)?
I don't think amplifier is cheap (well, I don't think so over here.
) I have to build myself a P68 monoblock driving into 2 ohms just to have more power for my subs than what I have presently.. 
besides, I need the extra power when needed. 
same here! some people I know tell me that they hear other people's systems distorting so badly, they just turn it up to "show off".
since this is a car sub topic....what do you guys think about my box? I just thought this box config would go loud and I built one for my SUV. works quite well, about 170 watts per sub and I get to around ~130db with the windows open . www.djquan.angelcities.com/ride.html
Heh. There actually was a 1mm hole drilled in the back of my sub boxes, but I accidentally plugged it when I installed the box in the back of the car. I've been MEANING to get around to fixing that, but I just haven't done it yet. It's not a problem when the subs are playing, there's just enough air leakage around the sub itself to allow it to equalise.
I also agree. I'd be willing to build a horn enclosure for listening tests, at least.
Hmmm... Within a good stone's throw of my office, I could buy a dozen car amplifiers of 500W or more. Many of these would actually cost me less to buy than it would cost me to build a P68 for home use.I don't think amplifier is cheap (well, I don't think so over here.
For my car, I can get to 130dB SPL, and that's with plain sealed enclosures, with the windows down, (It actually makes no difference in my car) but my car is a lot different from an SUV.
I'm running 60W/channel to a pair of 10" subs (120W total)While testing a friend's 10" DVC in a bandpass, I got 138dB SPL on the same amp, which goes the show the efficiency gain that a bandpass enclosure is capable of! (Too loud for me.)
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