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Old 2nd January 2014, 02:39 PM   #1
Nikila is offline Nikila  Norway
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Default Need fast advice with subwoofer!

Hello could u recommend me one of following subwoofers:
PUNCH Subwoofers - P1S2-12 - Rockford Fosgate®
TS-W310S4 - 12" Champion Series Subwoofer with Single 4 Ω Voice Coil | Pioneer Electronics USA
Reference 1260w - Infinity
http://www.focal-america.com/wp-cont.../09/30A1DB.pdf

for this Kenwood KAC-6104D Mono car amplifier 300 watts RMS x 1 at 2 ohms at Crutchfield.com amplifier.

Which of these subs can be better for sealed box?
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Old 2nd January 2014, 04:05 PM   #2
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The rule of thumb for sealed enclosures is to divide the Free Air Resonance by the Qes, or the electrical control, to obtain the EBP. Values greater than 50 are more suited to vented enclosures, values less than 50 are best for sealed. Often times driver designers will split the difference, aiming for values right at 50.....which is a compromise at best...it's either one or the other...they are trying to be all things for all people, marketing.
Of the four you noted, the Pioneer doesn't publish T/S parameters, the Punch 12" is running at 29.76...It's called the Efficiency Bandwidth Product.
The Infinity and the Focal are doing the compromise at 57.31 and 53.63 respectively. The Punch seems to be the better choice solely from a numbers standpoint.


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Old 2nd January 2014, 04:16 PM   #3
Nikila is offline Nikila  Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Ellis View Post
The rule of thumb for sealed enclosures is to divide the Free Air Resonance by the Qes, or the electrical control, to obtain the EBP. Values greater than 50 are more suited to vented enclosures, values less than 50 are best for sealed. Often times driver designers will split the difference, aiming for values right at 50.....which is a compromise at best...it's either one or the other...they are trying to be all things for all people, marketing.
Of the four you noted, the Pioneer doesn't publish T/S parameters, the Punch 12" is running at 29.76...It's called the Efficiency Bandwidth Product.
The Infinity and the Focal are doing the compromise at 57.31 and 53.63 respectively. The Punch seems to be the better choice solely from a numbers standpoint.


__________________________________________________ _Rick..........
Thx Rick

But this punch subwoofer has only 86db sensitivity. Other have much more, do u think this one will give solid bass? Also this RF is 250RMS, wont it be hard for it to handle 300 rms W from amp?
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Old 2nd January 2014, 04:28 PM   #4
SS4927 is offline SS4927  Canada
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I would also go with the Punch. The pioneer's page lacks some specs but states "sealed enclosure".

My experience with Kenwood amps was less that impressed, I think they tend to inflate the numbers. In direct comparisons with much smaller rated amps that did better.
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Old 2nd January 2014, 05:02 PM   #5
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Running the Punch thru WinISD beta simulation, I get a closed box of 135.3 Liters, an F3 (-3.07Db) at 31.92 Hertz. A Qtc of .71 and an enclosure size of 646mm X 513mm X 407mm inside volume. Remember you will get a "cabin gain" on the lower registers.....as the actual chamber effect of a car, the inside acting somewhat like a Horn.
A lot of manufacturers play the power numbers fast & loose. In this case Punch is ay least attempting to standardize things by teaming up with Klippel, who is doing documentation work, FFT work......a testing entity who is doing lots of work trying to advance things with driver performance.

__________________________________________________ _____Rick..........

Last edited by Richard Ellis; 2nd January 2014 at 05:09 PM. Reason: additional thoughts
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Old 2nd January 2014, 05:45 PM   #6
mika111 is offline mika111  Finland
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From pioneer.eu you can find T/S specs for those Pioneer subs...why not use a dual 4ohm woofer to get that Kenwood amp into 2ohms load? TS-W310D4 Pioneer - Speakers, Subwoofers - Car*Entertainment
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Old 2nd January 2014, 08:11 PM   #7
Nikila is offline Nikila  Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SS4927 View Post
I would also go with the Punch. The pioneer's page lacks some specs but states "sealed enclosure".

My experience with Kenwood amps was less that impressed, I think they tend to inflate the numbers. In direct comparisons with much smaller rated amps that did better.
I agree, i think old junk model amp which i had with 170rms did better than this one. But it will be enough for my first stereo installation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Ellis View Post
Running the Punch thru WinISD beta simulation, I get a closed box of 135.3 Liters, an F3 (-3.07Db) at 31.92 Hertz. A Qtc of .71 and an enclosure size of 646mm X 513mm X 407mm inside volume. Remember you will get a "cabin gain" on the lower registers.....as the actual chamber effect of a car, the inside acting somewhat like a Horn.
A lot of manufacturers play the power numbers fast & loose. In this case Punch is ay least attempting to standardize things by teaming up with Klippel, who is doing documentation work, FFT work......a testing entity who is doing lots of work trying to advance things with driver performance.

__________________________________________________ _____Rick..........
I really dont want to take so much space of my trunk. Should have enough space for dead bodies. I have heard that RF makes great stuff for their price so i was aiming to try RF by myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mika111 View Post
From pioneer.eu you can find T/S specs for those Pioneer subs...why not use a dual 4ohm woofer to get that Kenwood amp into 2ohms load? TS-W310D4 Pioneer - Speakers, Subwoofers - Car*Entertainment
Well this subwoofer looks much more powerfull than those from my first post. But the thing is, will pioneer be good for sealed box? If u compare punch which has only 250 rms and pioneer with 400rms it looks like pioneer wins with rms but is it really do?

Last edited by Nikila; 2nd January 2014 at 08:24 PM.
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Old 2nd January 2014, 08:19 PM   #8
Nikila is offline Nikila  Norway
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Just found this one PUNCH Subwoofers - P2D4-12 - Rockford Fosgate®. Does this sub work with 2ohm amp? if it does and we compare it to TS-W310D4 Pioneer - Speakers, Subwoofers - Car*Entertainment who is the winner? Just sensitivity of 9 dbs difference confuses me... Also im focusing for sealed box.

Last edited by Nikila; 2nd January 2014 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 2nd January 2014, 08:37 PM   #9
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The T/S parameters for the Pioneer are lacking key specifications, take note the Fs is rated at 37 Hz.....Kinda high. What does that tell us? This would make for a "stiff" suspension, the surround & spider assemblies, along with the 1.2 cubic foot worth of Vas, or compliance. The value of Qes is missing from the T/S specs but Qts is there at .77........also kinda high.........less overall control than the others. Without these key specs we are just guessing really.
As to power "capacity"...as I said, these "specs" mean rather little as there is no agreed upon standards. Granted it is rated at 95Db very good but if it is an "un-controlled" 95Db worth..??? Loud & 'sloppy' or a bit less volume & more accurate.


__________________________________________________ _____Rick..........
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Old 2nd January 2014, 08:59 PM   #10
Nikila is offline Nikila  Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Ellis View Post
The T/S parameters for the Pioneer are lacking key specifications, take note the Fs is rated at 37 Hz.....Kinda high. What does that tell us? This would make for a "stiff" suspension, the surround & spider assemblies, along with the 1.2 cubic foot worth of Vas, or compliance. The value of Qes is missing from the T/S specs but Qts is there at .77........also kinda high.........less overall control than the others. Without these key specs we are just guessing really.
As to power "capacity"...as I said, these "specs" mean rather little as there is no agreed upon standards. Granted it is rated at 95Db very good but if it is an "un-controlled" 95Db worth..??? Loud & 'sloppy' or a bit less volume & more accurate.


__________________________________________________ _____Rick..........
Well i have to decide until saturday, because im planning to waste a little money on new sub and buy materials for box =) This punch is maximum money i can spend, it costs here around 230 dollars, while pioneer 170. I mean if u have more suggestion of subs which wont jump over 230, i would like to hear. Just i dont really know much about good quality subs, all info i search on the internet.
!!I couldnt find an answer what i asked before, PUNCH Subwoofers - P2D4-12 - Rockford Fosgate® will this subwoofer match with my kenwood amp? Will they match together?

Last edited by Nikila; 2nd January 2014 at 09:01 PM.
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