Need fast advice with subwoofer!

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Nikila

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Richard Ellis

Richard Ellis

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Joined 2006
The rule of thumb for sealed enclosures is to divide the Free Air Resonance by the Qes, or the electrical control, to obtain the EBP. Values greater than 50 are more suited to vented enclosures, values less than 50 are best for sealed. Often times driver designers will split the difference, aiming for values right at 50.....which is a compromise at best...it's either one or the other...they are trying to be all things for all people, marketing.
Of the four you noted, the Pioneer doesn't publish T/S parameters, the Punch 12" is running at 29.76...It's called the Efficiency Bandwidth Product.
The Infinity and the Focal are doing the compromise at 57.31 and 53.63 respectively. The Punch seems to be the better choice solely from a numbers standpoint.


___________________________________________________Rick..........
 
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Nikila

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Richard Ellis said:
The rule of thumb for sealed enclosures is to divide the Free Air Resonance by the Qes, or the electrical control, to obtain the EBP. Values greater than 50 are more suited to vented enclosures, values less than 50 are best for sealed. Often times driver designers will split the difference, aiming for values right at 50.....which is a compromise at best...it's either one or the other...they are trying to be all things for all people, marketing.
Of the four you noted, the Pioneer doesn't publish T/S parameters, the Punch 12" is running at 29.76...It's called the Efficiency Bandwidth Product.
The Infinity and the Focal are doing the compromise at 57.31 and 53.63 respectively. The Punch seems to be the better choice solely from a numbers standpoint.


___________________________________________________Rick..........
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Thx Rick

But this punch subwoofer has only 86db sensitivity. Other have much more, do u think this one will give solid bass? Also this RF is 250RMS, wont it be hard for it to handle 300 rms W from amp?
 
SS4927

SS4927

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I would also go with the Punch. The pioneer's page lacks some specs but states "sealed enclosure".

My experience with Kenwood amps was less that impressed, I think they tend to inflate the numbers. In direct comparisons with much smaller rated amps that did better.
 
Richard Ellis

Richard Ellis

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Running the Punch thru WinISD beta simulation, I get a closed box of 135.3 Liters, an F3 (-3.07Db) at 31.92 Hertz. A Qtc of .71 and an enclosure size of 646mm X 513mm X 407mm inside volume. Remember you will get a "cabin gain" on the lower registers.....as the actual chamber effect of a car, the inside acting somewhat like a Horn.
A lot of manufacturers play the power numbers fast & loose. In this case Punch is ay least attempting to standardize things by teaming up with Klippel, who is doing documentation work, FFT work......a testing entity who is doing lots of work trying to advance things with driver performance.

_______________________________________________________Rick..........
 
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Nikila

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SS4927 said:
I would also go with the Punch. The pioneer's page lacks some specs but states "sealed enclosure".

My experience with Kenwood amps was less that impressed, I think they tend to inflate the numbers. In direct comparisons with much smaller rated amps that did better.
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I agree, i think old junk model amp which i had with 170rms did better than this one. But it will be enough for my first stereo installation.

Richard Ellis said:
Running the Punch thru WinISD beta simulation, I get a closed box of 135.3 Liters, an F3 (-3.07Db) at 31.92 Hertz. A Qtc of .71 and an enclosure size of 646mm X 513mm X 407mm inside volume. Remember you will get a "cabin gain" on the lower registers.....as the actual chamber effect of a car, the inside acting somewhat like a Horn.
A lot of manufacturers play the power numbers fast & loose. In this case Punch is ay least attempting to standardize things by teaming up with Klippel, who is doing documentation work, FFT work......a testing entity who is doing lots of work trying to advance things with driver performance.

_______________________________________________________Rick..........
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I really dont want to take so much space of my trunk. Should have enough space for dead bodies. I have heard that RF makes great stuff for their price so i was aiming to try RF by myself.

mika111 said:
From pioneer.eu you can find T/S specs for those Pioneer subs...why not use a dual 4ohm woofer to get that Kenwood amp into 2ohms load? TS-W310D4 Pioneer - Speakers, Subwoofers - Car*Entertainment
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Well this subwoofer looks much more powerfull than those from my first post. But the thing is, will pioneer be good for sealed box? If u compare punch which has only 250 rms and pioneer with 400rms it looks like pioneer wins with rms but is it really do?
 
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Richard Ellis

Richard Ellis

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The T/S parameters for the Pioneer are lacking key specifications, take note the Fs is rated at 37 Hz.....Kinda high. What does that tell us? This would make for a "stiff" suspension, the surround & spider assemblies, along with the 1.2 cubic foot worth of Vas, or compliance. The value of Qes is missing from the T/S specs but Qts is there at .77........also kinda high.........less overall control than the others. Without these key specs we are just guessing really.
As to power "capacity"...as I said, these "specs" mean rather little as there is no agreed upon standards. Granted it is rated at 95Db very good but if it is an "un-controlled" 95Db worth..??? Loud & 'sloppy' or a bit less volume & more accurate.


_______________________________________________________Rick..........
 
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Nikila

Member
Joined 2013
Richard Ellis said:
The T/S parameters for the Pioneer are lacking key specifications, take note the Fs is rated at 37 Hz.....Kinda high. What does that tell us? This would make for a "stiff" suspension, the surround & spider assemblies, along with the 1.2 cubic foot worth of Vas, or compliance. The value of Qes is missing from the T/S specs but Qts is there at .77........also kinda high.........less overall control than the others. Without these key specs we are just guessing really.
As to power "capacity"...as I said, these "specs" mean rather little as there is no agreed upon standards. Granted it is rated at 95Db very good but if it is an "un-controlled" 95Db worth..??? Loud & 'sloppy' or a bit less volume & more accurate.


_______________________________________________________Rick..........
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Well i have to decide until saturday, because im planning to waste a little money on new sub and buy materials for box =) This punch is maximum money i can spend, it costs here around 230 dollars, while pioneer 170. I mean if u have more suggestion of subs which wont jump over 230, i would like to hear. Just i dont really know much about good quality subs, all info i search on the internet.
!!I couldnt find an answer what i asked before, PUNCH Subwoofers - P2D4-12 - Rockford Fosgate® will this subwoofer match with my kenwood amp? Will they match together?
 
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Richard Ellis

Richard Ellis

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The other Punch driver simulates in at -3.06Db at 35.43 hertz, a 114.1 liter enclosure, good for 611mm by 485mm by 384mm. Still at the ideal (perfect) Qtc rating of .71 Slightly smaller than the other one.

You really have to build the enclosure at the designed internal dimensions.....shrinking the enclosure size to "fit" the car really is counterproductive..........doing it right is the right way to go.
This driver is a step or two over the other Punch driver...lots of Xmax...and as I thought can be configured for sealed or Ported.......you think the sealed is big? Lemme' simulate it for a ported enclosure...things get really big, downright huge for ported versions...but that isn't what it's for..it's for car applications & not home applications.

Just simmed for a ported, not "bad" really at 752mm by 597mm by 473mm, with a 102mm diameter port, 202mm long.......but will get very deep into the teens (below 20Hz) before rolling off -3.01@17.78Hz.

________________________________________________Rick........
 
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Nikila

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Nikila

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mika111 said:
Finland :D

With your budget, your goals, your amplifier power..you can´t get a better subs.

E: Actually dynaBel AS you can find Tangband -speakers from Norway. Contact them.
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Well u are right, but i rather buy expensive top quality home stereo than cars, maybe u cant understand this or maybe u have too much money to spend and to be able install stereo system at home, car, wc and so on. Just i see it different way and i see no point putting system for for over 1k dollars which is more than my car cost...
Anyway if i win a lottery i gonna buy a plane ticket for u and we will buy top quality stereo system and install it :D
 
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