Hello,
I was wondering if there are any oldschoolers out there for some opinions and thoughts on real oldschool PPI amp vs amp.I know the first gen M,AM,and pro mos have a higher damping factor than the triangular/round "Art Series".But I am wondering power,s.q.,reliability,and build quality even though the .2's should have still been Arizona made what you think about them in comparison?
Thank You for any input/opinions in advance
I was wondering if there are any oldschoolers out there for some opinions and thoughts on real oldschool PPI amp vs amp.I know the first gen M,AM,and pro mos have a higher damping factor than the triangular/round "Art Series".But I am wondering power,s.q.,reliability,and build quality even though the .2's should have still been Arizona made what you think about them in comparison?
Thank You for any input/opinions in advance
No worries, Brett aka PPI-Art-Collector will be a fountain of knowledge. FWIW damping factor is a bit of snake oil:
From wiki
"Amplifier output impedance
Modern solid state amplifiers, which use relatively high levels of negative feedback to control distortion, have extremely low output impedances—one of the many consequences of using feedback—and small changes in an already low value change overall damping factor by only a small, and therefore negligible, amount.
Thus, high damping factor values do not, by themselves, say very much about the quality of a system; most modern amplifiers have them, but vary in quality nonetheless. Given the controversy that has long surrounded the use of feedback, some extend their distaste for negative feedback amplifier designs (and so a high damping factor) as a mark of poor quality. For them, such high values imply a high level of NFB in the amplifier.
Tube amplifiers typically have much lower feedback ratios, and in any case almost always have output transformers that limit how low the output impedance can be. Their lower damping factors are one of the reasons many audiophiles prefer tube amplifiers. Taken even further, some tube amplifiers are designed to have no negative feedback at all."
From Andy Wehmeyer, product manager at Harmon Kardon and another forum gem:
"This is the best explanation I've ever read and it's absolutely true.
Damping Factor: Effects On System Response — Reviews and News from Audioholics
It's pretty close to what RC says and it's the reason that CEA2006 indicates "output regulation" and "Effective damping factor".
The Crown paper is misleading. Anytime you read a supposedly scientific paper that starts out by indicating that a device "has a mind of its own", you can pretty much chalk it up to the work of a marketer who is trying a last ditch effort to sell someting that's been debunked.
The point is that high amplifier output impedance does have an effect on system response, but its effect is on the frequency response because an amplifier is a constant voltage source and its power output is regulated by the load. The output impedance is in series with the load. It's not much of a factor at resonance where the speaker's impedance is high, but it can be a factor above resonance where the speaker's impedance is low. The output impedance has to be pretty high for this to happen, though. For a 4-ohm speaker, the output impedance would have to be 4 ohms to reduce the midrange by 3 dB. Floyd Toole says low Q peaks and dips are audible at .5dB, so something like a half ohm might be audible.
It the amplifier's output impedance is not a factor in cone control unless the output impedance is ridiculously high--several ohms. It would be pretty difficult to find a car audio amplifier with an output impedance that high. No, not pretty difficult. Damn near impossible. Even .5 ohms is completely out of spec for any amplifier that uses transistors as output devices."
From wiki
"Amplifier output impedance
Modern solid state amplifiers, which use relatively high levels of negative feedback to control distortion, have extremely low output impedances—one of the many consequences of using feedback—and small changes in an already low value change overall damping factor by only a small, and therefore negligible, amount.
Thus, high damping factor values do not, by themselves, say very much about the quality of a system; most modern amplifiers have them, but vary in quality nonetheless. Given the controversy that has long surrounded the use of feedback, some extend their distaste for negative feedback amplifier designs (and so a high damping factor) as a mark of poor quality. For them, such high values imply a high level of NFB in the amplifier.
Tube amplifiers typically have much lower feedback ratios, and in any case almost always have output transformers that limit how low the output impedance can be. Their lower damping factors are one of the reasons many audiophiles prefer tube amplifiers. Taken even further, some tube amplifiers are designed to have no negative feedback at all."
From Andy Wehmeyer, product manager at Harmon Kardon and another forum gem:
"This is the best explanation I've ever read and it's absolutely true.
Damping Factor: Effects On System Response — Reviews and News from Audioholics
It's pretty close to what RC says and it's the reason that CEA2006 indicates "output regulation" and "Effective damping factor".
The Crown paper is misleading. Anytime you read a supposedly scientific paper that starts out by indicating that a device "has a mind of its own", you can pretty much chalk it up to the work of a marketer who is trying a last ditch effort to sell someting that's been debunked.
The point is that high amplifier output impedance does have an effect on system response, but its effect is on the frequency response because an amplifier is a constant voltage source and its power output is regulated by the load. The output impedance is in series with the load. It's not much of a factor at resonance where the speaker's impedance is high, but it can be a factor above resonance where the speaker's impedance is low. The output impedance has to be pretty high for this to happen, though. For a 4-ohm speaker, the output impedance would have to be 4 ohms to reduce the midrange by 3 dB. Floyd Toole says low Q peaks and dips are audible at .5dB, so something like a half ohm might be audible.
It the amplifier's output impedance is not a factor in cone control unless the output impedance is ridiculously high--several ohms. It would be pretty difficult to find a car audio amplifier with an output impedance that high. No, not pretty difficult. Damn near impossible. Even .5 ohms is completely out of spec for any amplifier that uses transistors as output devices."
all i can say, is that the bigger differences lies in the application of the individual lines and the processing. there is some efficiency difference, but, from what i've seen is that the arts were designed for performance at higher imp. loads, where many others were rated at higher loads, but mostly higher current geared. although, there were both types throughout, those are speaking mostly of the more popular models. as for reliability, designs didn't really go backwards while us made, but the newer models had the stupid molex plugs, and the older ones had undersized wire and harness plugs, etc. either way, i would say that wiring/termination was the single common downfall of all the old school ppi's. -my$.02
Hello,
I was wondering if there are any oldschoolers out there for some opinions and thoughts on real oldschool PPI amp vs amp.I know the first gen M,AM,and pro mos have a higher damping factor than the triangular/round "Art Series".But I am wondering power,s.q.,reliability,and build quality even though the .2's should have still been Arizona made what you think about them in comparison?
Thank You for any input/opinions in advance
From a purely mechanical standpoint, the Art's were great, maybe one of the best amp types PPi made. The connections seemed much better than the Pro Mos IMO and they had a low profile. I wish I'd kept my A300's, that is for sure. Good power and not a huge package. Plus they had some nifty extras such as plumbing them for liquid-cooling. The extrusion has channels built into it. If you were burying them under a panel this was a great feature.
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