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Old 16th June 2011, 05:47 AM   #11
MOER is offline MOER  United States
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Default Power bass

Simple the claims of power are not possible.

There are 4 pcs of 49x19 toroids running at about 50KHz. Each is capable of 1,300w at 50KHz. This info is available from the MagInc site.

So theoretically 5200w is available assuming all circuits are 100% efficient which of course they are not. The class D output stage has massive saturation issues when driving 1 ohm.

The power supplies are also not 100% efficient.

I repaired one of these some months ago and at 14.4v battery it delivered just under 3,000w at 1 ohm


Steve Mantz
Zed Audio
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Old 16th June 2011, 11:01 AM   #12
Cr@sh is offline Cr@sh  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOER View Post
Simple the claims of power are not possible.

There are 4 pcs of 49x19 toroids running at about 50KHz. Each is capable of 1,300w at 50KHz. This info is available from the MagInc site.

So theoretically 5200w is available assuming all circuits are 100% efficient which of course they are not. The class D output stage has massive saturation issues when driving 1 ohm.

The power supplies are also not 100% efficient.

I repaired one of these some months ago and at 14.4v battery it delivered just under 3,000w at 1 ohm


Steve Mantz
Zed Audio
Great input Steve! I love hearing from guys like you and Perry. Nothing beats hearing from the designers themselves. I never realized the toroids were running that kind of power at 50khz. The companies rate the amps at 5k but what hz are they testing it at? Is there a industry standard?
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Old 16th June 2011, 11:51 AM   #13
ppia600 is offline ppia600  United States
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Originally Posted by Cr@sh View Post
The one way to do really well in car audio comps is to stay in the lower power and speaker classes or go sq and learn how to eloquently design and keep to the rule book. They do have many easier to win classes now.
This would be a nice concept but there have always been people who could buy the top end $ "cheater" amps that were labeled "50w into four ohms" and four feet long. :lol: That was the way wealthy people got around the rules back then, now that current limiting rules exist it irks me that they won't limit the alternator voltage as well. They know damn well the wealthiest are going to use that to their advantage and still don't modify that rule? This is CAR audio competition, not airplane audio competition. How many people do you know that drive cars that operate higher than 14v on a daily basis. Heck, we could just run an extension cord to the car and use 110vac for the entire audio system in the car, then you wouldn't have to worry about the amperage limit. :lol:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Perry Babin View Post
There have always been classes of competition that most of us couldn't afford. In general, the people who race at local tracks on the weekends can't afford to own an Indy car. Should we stop all forms of competition that those with the lowest incomes can't afford to participate in?
When you go by power "class" and actually give everyone the chance to showcase their design skills vs pocketbook capabilities its a little more level is all I'm saying. I know you can't get around some advantages but a current limit without voltage limit is ludicrous. They should just label it the "people who can afford to run higher than 14v class" because they know that is what will happen for the winners. People who adhere to the 200 amp limit (for example) will pretty much lose in spl comps unless someone with a deeper pocketbook slips up and has a crappy design/setup with their 18-20v system. I'm not saying "stopping all forms of competition" makes any sense and I wish you wouldn't imply that's what I was inferring. I'm just saying the rule makers should have to adhere to some rules as well.
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Old 16th June 2011, 05:11 PM   #14
Cr@sh is offline Cr@sh  United States
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@ppi, cheater amps have no place any more because there are no watt classes. SQ is still using the classes but the power itself has nothing to do with winning. SQ is all about following every rule in the code book of iasca and or db drag. The classes are done by woofer area and other criteria such as bass race which has to do with precision and longevity. The only competition that power has any play in is spl and spl classes are divided by woofer area and then by vehicle modding like extreme where you can have 6" lexan windows and cement floors.
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Old 17th June 2011, 12:04 AM   #15
ppia600 is offline ppia600  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cr@sh View Post
@ppi, cheater amps have no place any more because there are no watt classes. SQ is still using the classes but the power itself has nothing to do with winning. SQ is all about following every rule in the code book of iasca and or db drag. The classes are done by woofer area and other criteria such as bass race which has to do with precision and longevity. The only competition that power has any play in is spl and spl classes are divided by woofer area and then by vehicle modding like extreme where you can have 6" lexan windows and cement floors.
I'm not referring to SQ competition regulations, only the one (amperage) regulation the OP was mentioning.

SQ to me is the only real realm of audio competition nowadays in my opinion.

SPL competition (in my opinion)is a joke and you could probably build a neodymium magnetized 4" thick solid 45" inch piston with no surround, connected to a 50" chamber with four non-functional wheels and a steering wheel inside with the mic mounted to it, and drive it with a 40hz sine wave from an uber high power AC inverter and call it a "test tone" with the stuff people consider music lately. :lol:

Well, since my first post was referring to the OP's subject and then went into the realm of people using 16v+ alternators I'm not really arguing using cheater amps. I was just using them as examples from the past. The point I was trying to make is you can't have a relatively level "playing field" when some people have access to more expensive modifications (such as the apparently unregulated alternator voltage) some competitors utilize. If that is okay by rules then wouldn't it be okay for someone to run 1megawatt 120vac generator right next to their car and connect them with some nice thick cables, allowing them to run massive high voltage high end home amplifiers in their car with relatively low current? :lol: I mean, the guys are running modified high voltage alternators in their car that don't get used in streetable car so where does it end, why not?

I'm not complaining for myself, I haven't been involved in audio competitions since the late 90's but it just seems like a simple tweek could be done to keep people from abusing rules, especially if you're going to set some arbitrary amperage limit. If you're going to create "rules", make them to apply to everyone involved.
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Last edited by ppia600; 17th June 2011 at 12:07 AM.
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