I have 3 Orion 280GX bridged driving a sub and 12" JBL midbasses.
The sub is 4 ohm and has a sensitivity of 85 db. The midbasses are 8 ohm and have a sensitivity of 96 db. The amps don't seem to be working hard at all as the midbass amps are always stone cold no matter what the SPL. The sub amp gets a little warm, but usually it is hard to tell it is on by touching it. So they don't seem to be working hard at all and I am probably not using anything near full wattage.
Dynamics are very very good, BUT in the interest of ultimate dynamics is there anything that can be done to modify the amps for the specific current loading to improve dynamics? I also have a 2150GX, would running a midbasses off each channel be better?
The sub is 4 ohm and has a sensitivity of 85 db. The midbasses are 8 ohm and have a sensitivity of 96 db. The amps don't seem to be working hard at all as the midbass amps are always stone cold no matter what the SPL. The sub amp gets a little warm, but usually it is hard to tell it is on by touching it. So they don't seem to be working hard at all and I am probably not using anything near full wattage.
Dynamics are very very good, BUT in the interest of ultimate dynamics is there anything that can be done to modify the amps for the specific current loading to improve dynamics? I also have a 2150GX, would running a midbasses off each channel be better?
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What i usually do is to rewind the HF transformer and change the primary secondary ratio according to the set up of the car.
That way the amp is tailored to the speakers that drives.
For example, if an amp faces a 4 ohm load, i increase the voltage of the pwm (and modify pwm output capacitors and associated feedback circuitry) so it produces its maximum output power at this load. This is a kind of severe mode but the results can be very satisfactory.
Perry I may have stated my question poorly. My car has very solid midbass and gets plenty loud and I cannot stay in the car if I start turning the volume up at all. I believe this is mostly due to the midbasses I have chosen. The JBL 2204 and have a fairly high sensitivity of 96 db. At 10 watts each (per Unibox modeling) my SPL would be 112 db. Between that and the speakers being 8 ohm is why I have assumed the amps don’t get hot. So I have no reason to think the amps aren’t working correctly.
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2204h.pdf
I have read that the Orion GX line is very good at bass and sub bass for reasons I don’t understand. Considering that I am not using the full voltage of the amps, is there a tradeoff I can make, possibly exchanging maximum wattage for increased dynamics. If for example, I changed the 280 for an HCCA, (lower voltage less current) would that make an audible difference?
Ultra- That sounds very interesting. I am assuming you mods would give me more power by specifically modifying the amps to the speaker loading? Would that provide me with better dynamics?
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2204h.pdf
I have read that the Orion GX line is very good at bass and sub bass for reasons I don’t understand. Considering that I am not using the full voltage of the amps, is there a tradeoff I can make, possibly exchanging maximum wattage for increased dynamics. If for example, I changed the 280 for an HCCA, (lower voltage less current) would that make an audible difference?
Ultra- That sounds very interesting. I am assuming you mods would give me more power by specifically modifying the amps to the speaker loading? Would that provide me with better dynamics?
Ultra- That sounds very interesting. I am assuming you mods would give me more power by specifically modifying the amps to the speaker loading? Would that provide me with better dynamics?[/QUOTE]
Well, since i re-wind the HF transformers, i use either custom made, or industrial litz wire, and that allows me to increase the oscillating frequency of the pwm. I have done this successfully in a STEG K2.04, a Zapco C2K-4.0X, and i am about to mod a colossus.
Also did it in two Cadence amps (dont remember exact model. I remember there were twin toroids and that the amp could be loaded down to 1 ohm).
The result was excellent dynamics-really superior. The amps were transformed! In the case of the Cadence, the shop owner (who has installed dozens of these amps) immediately called on the phone the Cadence distributor to go over and listen to these amps...
Its worth mentioning that the mod is done in the pwm, and the benefit is in the "untouched" audio section.
I think the great Perry Babin will agree that the higher the frequencies, the higher the dynamics.
Well, since i re-wind the HF transformers, i use either custom made, or industrial litz wire, and that allows me to increase the oscillating frequency of the pwm. I have done this successfully in a STEG K2.04, a Zapco C2K-4.0X, and i am about to mod a colossus.
Also did it in two Cadence amps (dont remember exact model. I remember there were twin toroids and that the amp could be loaded down to 1 ohm).
The result was excellent dynamics-really superior. The amps were transformed! In the case of the Cadence, the shop owner (who has installed dozens of these amps) immediately called on the phone the Cadence distributor to go over and listen to these amps...
Its worth mentioning that the mod is done in the pwm, and the benefit is in the "untouched" audio section.
I think the great Perry Babin will agree that the higher the frequencies, the higher the dynamics.
Perry, I don't believe I am using anywhere near the full power of the amps have. It would just be too loud in the car at that point. I really doubt if I am using 20 of the 160 watts (into 8 ohms) that I have avaliable.
testing amp output - I know the highest I will play the HU before it is too loud to stay in the car during bass hits. How would I test the amps output at that point?
testing amp output - I know the highest I will play the HU before it is too loud to stay in the car during bass hits. How would I test the amps output at that point?
Generally 'dynamics' would indicate dynamic range and headroom but that's not an amplifier issuer if you're not driving the amps to full power.
How do you define 'dynamics'?
What is it that's not dynamic enough?
You can only determine the output voltage at the point where it's too loud. You can't calculate power with speakers. The impedance varies too greatly.
How do you define 'dynamics'?
What is it that's not dynamic enough?
You can only determine the output voltage at the point where it's too loud. You can't calculate power with speakers. The impedance varies too greatly.
I didn’t think anyone would ask me to define my question better. But I should have.
I guess I would define dynamic as sounding real or live, like sitting next to drums, a piano, French horn or stand up bass. Like the instruments are there in the car with you. My whole system was developed to reproduce dynamics and get those big JBL guitar speakers in my car. But when it was done I felt the impact and power of drums and bass, but it still didn’t feel dynamic. But what did I know, dynamics was something I had read about but never really felt.
But because female vocals didn’t sound as clear and refined as I wanted I switched my mids to Audax PR170M0 (driven by a D200II). Then the drums, bass guitar and horns all became much more real. And the female vocals are MUCH better.
Now when horns hit, you can almost see the horns lift up to the sky and you feel the power, and it is startling for that second, and then they are gone and all is quite again. Drum hits sound like the drums are in the car, you can feel the impact, crisp and sharp. Stand up bass and bass guitar make your shirt and pants move with distinct reverberations.
But the music isn't playing loudly; it is just there when it is required. It sounds no louder than you have heard it a hundred times before but there is much more impact and sharpness. More than power it is the immediacy and sharpness of the sound that is so compelling.
The whole experience has been transforming, I started listening to classical music. I can begin understand (I think I can begin to understand) what the composer was trying to do by having different instruments playing at the same time. In Beethoven’s 5th I feel as though the orchestra is pushing the violins forward. I know, strange.
You don’t feel that when music is just loud, this is much different than loud. It is there and then it is gone. But I am really over my head trying to explain what dynamics mean to me and how it changes the music.
Currently I am using a JBL MS-8 and all the EQ’s parameter and such are set flat, in the default mode.
My system is very dynamic; I just wanted to find out if there is a way to get more. The amps were chosen because people have said that the GX series amps are great bass and sub amps. Why? And what can I do to make them greater? Are the old old Rockford Fosgate amps better for sub and mid bass? What makes them better?
Just want to know if I can get more of a good thing.
I guess I would define dynamic as sounding real or live, like sitting next to drums, a piano, French horn or stand up bass. Like the instruments are there in the car with you. My whole system was developed to reproduce dynamics and get those big JBL guitar speakers in my car. But when it was done I felt the impact and power of drums and bass, but it still didn’t feel dynamic. But what did I know, dynamics was something I had read about but never really felt.
But because female vocals didn’t sound as clear and refined as I wanted I switched my mids to Audax PR170M0 (driven by a D200II). Then the drums, bass guitar and horns all became much more real. And the female vocals are MUCH better.
Now when horns hit, you can almost see the horns lift up to the sky and you feel the power, and it is startling for that second, and then they are gone and all is quite again. Drum hits sound like the drums are in the car, you can feel the impact, crisp and sharp. Stand up bass and bass guitar make your shirt and pants move with distinct reverberations.
But the music isn't playing loudly; it is just there when it is required. It sounds no louder than you have heard it a hundred times before but there is much more impact and sharpness. More than power it is the immediacy and sharpness of the sound that is so compelling.
The whole experience has been transforming, I started listening to classical music. I can begin understand (I think I can begin to understand) what the composer was trying to do by having different instruments playing at the same time. In Beethoven’s 5th I feel as though the orchestra is pushing the violins forward. I know, strange.
You don’t feel that when music is just loud, this is much different than loud. It is there and then it is gone. But I am really over my head trying to explain what dynamics mean to me and how it changes the music.
Currently I am using a JBL MS-8 and all the EQ’s parameter and such are set flat, in the default mode.
My system is very dynamic; I just wanted to find out if there is a way to get more. The amps were chosen because people have said that the GX series amps are great bass and sub amps. Why? And what can I do to make them greater? Are the old old Rockford Fosgate amps better for sub and mid bass? What makes them better?
Just want to know if I can get more of a good thing.
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Most recorded music is very compressed so you lose a lot there. I have several of the Sheffield Lab recordings that were recorded without compression and most people probably wouldn't like them. If you listen to them at a level that doesn't cause clipping on the peaks, much of the rest of the material is at a level that's very low (only a few watts). Even on a system with 1000+ watts, I believe that most people would not be satisfied with this type of recording.
Another problem is trying to get good sound quality and good impact. Generally, speakers that can produce audio very precisely cannot do so at a high levels (nothing approaching live music levels). Something like a horn midrange cabinet driven by a 12" driver and driven with 500+ watts can produce mids that can rattle your teeth but it won't be audiophile quality.
It's likely that what you really want is more acoustic power. To get what you want, I think you'd need MUCH more power, much more efficient speakers and much better recordings.
If you want to try a few uncompressed CDs, find the following:
James Newton Howard and Friends (Sheffield Lab)
Joe Cocker - Sheffield Steel (Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs)
Also good but compressed (although not as much as most recordings):
Van Morrison - Back on Top
Joe Jackson - Body and Soul
For some reason, people rip CDs to MP3 format. In the past, it may have been necessary due to storage limitations but not now. If you rip a CD to a hard drive, do it in wav format. The file size may be 10x the MP3 format but it will be original quality.
Another problem is trying to get good sound quality and good impact. Generally, speakers that can produce audio very precisely cannot do so at a high levels (nothing approaching live music levels). Something like a horn midrange cabinet driven by a 12" driver and driven with 500+ watts can produce mids that can rattle your teeth but it won't be audiophile quality.
It's likely that what you really want is more acoustic power. To get what you want, I think you'd need MUCH more power, much more efficient speakers and much better recordings.
If you want to try a few uncompressed CDs, find the following:
James Newton Howard and Friends (Sheffield Lab)
Joe Cocker - Sheffield Steel (Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs)
Also good but compressed (although not as much as most recordings):
Van Morrison - Back on Top
Joe Jackson - Body and Soul
For some reason, people rip CDs to MP3 format. In the past, it may have been necessary due to storage limitations but not now. If you rip a CD to a hard drive, do it in wav format. The file size may be 10x the MP3 format but it will be original quality.
Thanks Perry for the explanation. All of my music is in wav format. I hate to ask this next question because it may seem that we are going in circles, but it is only that I have no reference. What is the difference between acoustic power and dynamics?
If I listen to music at 85 db, from 80 Hz to 400 Hz, I have (theoretically) 40 db of headroom. From 400 to 3000 Hz I have 30 db of headroom. And as you wrote the quite sections are surely running at very low wattage, but will still be playing at 85 db. And I wouldn't stay in the car if it ever got to 115 to 125 db.
I need time to down load the recordings you suggested and listening to them, try to develop some tyoe of reference point.
Also, thanks for walking me through fixing my SoundStream amps and bridging my GX's.
If I listen to music at 85 db, from 80 Hz to 400 Hz, I have (theoretically) 40 db of headroom. From 400 to 3000 Hz I have 30 db of headroom. And as you wrote the quite sections are surely running at very low wattage, but will still be playing at 85 db. And I wouldn't stay in the car if it ever got to 115 to 125 db.
I need time to down load the recordings you suggested and listening to them, try to develop some tyoe of reference point.
Also, thanks for walking me through fixing my SoundStream amps and bridging my GX's.
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Are you DL'ing the entire CDs or individual tracks. If it's individual tracks, let me know and I'll tell you which are the best tracks.
Dynamic music would have a significant difference between the lowest levels and the peaks. Compressed music would have very little difference between the highest and lowest levels (like TV commercials).
Acoustic power may not represent any dynamic range. The horn on the front of a locomotive or an ocean going vessel has no dynamic range while it's producing output but has loads of acoustic power.
If anyone disagrees with these definitions, please step in and help.
Dynamic music would have a significant difference between the lowest levels and the peaks. Compressed music would have very little difference between the highest and lowest levels (like TV commercials).
Acoustic power may not represent any dynamic range. The horn on the front of a locomotive or an ocean going vessel has no dynamic range while it's producing output but has loads of acoustic power.
If anyone disagrees with these definitions, please step in and help.
Yes, please provide specific tracks to DL. If you have additional tracks I would be very interested in those also.
Perry, in your opinion would the suggestions made by ultra be helpful. Also, how does slew rate fall into this and are there better sub and base amps (that will fit under my seat).
Perry, in your opinion would the suggestions made by ultra be helpful. Also, how does slew rate fall into this and are there better sub and base amps (that will fit under my seat).
Start with these...
James Newton Howard and Friends:
04-L'Daddy (you probably already have this one)
Joe Cocker:
09-Talking Back To The Night
06-Ruby Lee
07-Many Rivers To Cross
Joe Jackson:
You can't get what you want
Van Morrison:
02-Philosopher's Stone
The entire CD is pretty good
Also try...
Renee Olstead (from the album of the same name):
Summertime
Eva Cassidy (from the Wonderful World album)
What a wonderful world
Not very dynamic but nice SQ...
Roy Orbison (black and white night)
Only the lonely
Aaron Neville (The Very Best Of Aaron Neville)
The Bells
If you tell me which of these you like, I may be able to suggest similar tracks.
James Newton Howard and Friends:
04-L'Daddy (you probably already have this one)
Joe Cocker:
09-Talking Back To The Night
06-Ruby Lee
07-Many Rivers To Cross
Joe Jackson:
You can't get what you want
Van Morrison:
02-Philosopher's Stone
The entire CD is pretty good
Also try...
Renee Olstead (from the album of the same name):
Summertime
Eva Cassidy (from the Wonderful World album)
What a wonderful world
Not very dynamic but nice SQ...
Roy Orbison (black and white night)
Only the lonely
Aaron Neville (The Very Best Of Aaron Neville)
The Bells
If you tell me which of these you like, I may be able to suggest similar tracks.
Acoustic power may not represent any dynamic range. The horn on the front of a locomotive or an ocean going vessel has no dynamic range while it's producing output but has loads of acoustic power.
If anyone disagrees with these definitions, please step in and help.[/QUOTE]
I would call it "peaks" without being able to better define it.
I cannot agree more with that opinion.
I think it this makes an amp look "bigger" than what it is.
If anyone disagrees with these definitions, please step in and help.[/QUOTE]
I would call it "peaks" without being able to better define it.
I cannot agree more with that opinion.
I think it this makes an amp look "bigger" than what it is.
if you are looking for dynamics, then it may not need more power.
if i get it right you are statisfied with the SPL lvl in your car. You would like to improve quality and not dBL-s.
I would start if i was you at least..
somewhere around that subbox you got.
dunno what aligment is your sub using, my personal experience is that sealed boxes produce "tight" er bass in a car than a ported or 4th or 6th order box.
i think it may has something to do with the group delay.
ported designs offer a vastly extended deep bass in a car do to cabinet gain of the trunk. but it is less "tight", so i would guess its less dynamic.
whatever is dynamic, naturally.
main problem is that its rather difficult to even describe what you are looking for.
one thing is sure, most probably more watts won't help you on thisone.
if i get it right you are statisfied with the SPL lvl in your car. You would like to improve quality and not dBL-s.
I would start if i was you at least..
somewhere around that subbox you got.
dunno what aligment is your sub using, my personal experience is that sealed boxes produce "tight" er bass in a car than a ported or 4th or 6th order box.
i think it may has something to do with the group delay.
ported designs offer a vastly extended deep bass in a car do to cabinet gain of the trunk. but it is less "tight", so i would guess its less dynamic.
whatever is dynamic, naturally.
main problem is that its rather difficult to even describe what you are looking for.
one thing is sure, most probably more watts won't help you on thisone.
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