The car is a 1995 Mercedes Benz E320 sedan. This speaker is located in the bottom rear of the front door. Without modification of the door panel the largest speaker that will fit is: 3 1/16" deep (top of flange to lowest part of speaker), 6" cone.
I'm doing an incemental upgrade. The headunit (aka radio) has been replaced with a Kenwood Excelon KDC-X993. The top of dash speakers replaced with low end polk audio (DB 501s) which actually fit the metric openings. Everything is still being driven by 40W/channel amps that are fed by speaker level signals from the headunit. The rear deck speakers (5" woofer + 2 tweeters on each side) are original.
My plan is to replace the speakers first and then deal with upgrading the amps. The polk audio speakers were inexpensive and a good upgrade compared to the stock dash speakers. I'm consdiering eventually replacing the dash speakers with the tang band 4" W4-1757SB flat cone mid/full range. I don't have any plans for the rear shelf speakers.
Another speaker I'm considering that is less expensive than the Seas with a bit less cone movement is the GR Research M-165X.
I'm doing an incemental upgrade. The headunit (aka radio) has been replaced with a Kenwood Excelon KDC-X993. The top of dash speakers replaced with low end polk audio (DB 501s) which actually fit the metric openings. Everything is still being driven by 40W/channel amps that are fed by speaker level signals from the headunit. The rear deck speakers (5" woofer + 2 tweeters on each side) are original.
My plan is to replace the speakers first and then deal with upgrading the amps. The polk audio speakers were inexpensive and a good upgrade compared to the stock dash speakers. I'm consdiering eventually replacing the dash speakers with the tang band 4" W4-1757SB flat cone mid/full range. I don't have any plans for the rear shelf speakers.
Another speaker I'm considering that is less expensive than the Seas with a bit less cone movement is the GR Research M-165X.
I have delt with SEAS spk settup, very expensive choice. That speaker does not in any way like playing in open air, if you can buy some baffle for rear of the speaker, your output will be worth the money, benz tends to mount the speaker to the door, so, you might want to consider that. Another thing, why put them in the rear? Your sound stage is up front. Just an opinion. If you like I can probaly send some pics of a simple way to do the install, just be careful removing panels as the torx sdrews are all hidden by the wood looking trim panels. Hope this helps. Mavric
SEAS Prestige L16RNX 6" Aluminum Cone Woofer (H1488-04) - 4 ohm
Quantity:
$88.80 for each
10+ $79.92
Madisound# H1488-04
View Product PDF (141 KB)
L16RNX is a 5” High Fidelity woofer with an injection moulded
metal chassis, intended for bass reflex and transmission line designs.
Stiff, yet light aluminum cone and low loss rubber surround show
no sign of the familiar 500-1500 Hz cone edge resonance and distortion
assosiated with soft cones.
A bumped back plate in the magnet system, together with the very long and light weight copper clad aluminum voice coil, allow extreme coil excursion with low distortion.
A heavy copper ring below the T-shaped pole piece reduces non linear and modulation distortion.
Extremely stiff and stable injection moulded metal basket, keeps the critical components in perfect alignment. Large windows in the basket both above and below the spider reduce sound reflection, air flow noise and cavity resonance to a minimum.
This driver uses Seas SpiderRing® technology.
Suggested box alignment:
0.35 cubic feet with 2" diameter vent by 6" long. Estimated F3 is 52Hz.
After looking, that is a mid-bass driver, I recommend(highly) an encluse for that purpose. At ot around 500hz, that door is going to rattle, I would dynamat the door then pick up some baffles from metra electronics, reinforce it, and please put them up front. If they wont fit and you dont them, let me know, very nice mid-bass driver.
Quantity:
$88.80 for each
10+ $79.92
Madisound# H1488-04
View Product PDF (141 KB)
L16RNX is a 5” High Fidelity woofer with an injection moulded
metal chassis, intended for bass reflex and transmission line designs.
Stiff, yet light aluminum cone and low loss rubber surround show
no sign of the familiar 500-1500 Hz cone edge resonance and distortion
assosiated with soft cones.
A bumped back plate in the magnet system, together with the very long and light weight copper clad aluminum voice coil, allow extreme coil excursion with low distortion.
A heavy copper ring below the T-shaped pole piece reduces non linear and modulation distortion.
Extremely stiff and stable injection moulded metal basket, keeps the critical components in perfect alignment. Large windows in the basket both above and below the spider reduce sound reflection, air flow noise and cavity resonance to a minimum.
This driver uses Seas SpiderRing® technology.
Suggested box alignment:
0.35 cubic feet with 2" diameter vent by 6" long. Estimated F3 is 52Hz.
After looking, that is a mid-bass driver, I recommend(highly) an encluse for that purpose. At ot around 500hz, that door is going to rattle, I would dynamat the door then pick up some baffles from metra electronics, reinforce it, and please put them up front. If they wont fit and you dont them, let me know, very nice mid-bass driver.
I'm trying to avoid modifying the door panels because I don't think I can create a nice looking finished product. This is why I'm trying to use the existing speaker locations at the bottom rear of the front doors.
There is very little space (3 3/16") from the existing front surface of the speaker flange in the door panel to the rear where the window opening mechanism moves behind the speaker. The existing speaker is mounted in a plastic "pod". I've included a drawing of the speaker pod and a fuzzy picture of the pod in the driver's side door without the door panel covering. The speaker grill opening in the door will accommodate a speaker cone up to 6" in diameter.
I'm confident I can build a mounting plate for the speaker that will bolt in where the pod is currently mounted. I doubt there is enough room for an enclosure inside the door.
I've been searching for mid-bass drivers that (a) fit based on size and depth, (b) have large XMAX and (c) are less than $100 each. This is the first time I've tried to select speakers so I'm sure I'm missing something. Any advice is much appreciated.
The reason I suggested the Seas driver is the comparatively large XMAX value (10mm) and shallow depth (76mm). My 2nd choice based on size, depth and XMAX is the GR Research M-165X. The M-165X has a slightly lower XMAX of 7.8mm and the speaker is slightly deeper. My 3rd choice is the Mach 5 Audio MLI-65 which has an XMAX of 5.5mm and is about 78mm deep.
There is very little space (3 3/16") from the existing front surface of the speaker flange in the door panel to the rear where the window opening mechanism moves behind the speaker. The existing speaker is mounted in a plastic "pod". I've included a drawing of the speaker pod and a fuzzy picture of the pod in the driver's side door without the door panel covering. The speaker grill opening in the door will accommodate a speaker cone up to 6" in diameter.
I'm confident I can build a mounting plate for the speaker that will bolt in where the pod is currently mounted. I doubt there is enough room for an enclosure inside the door.
I've been searching for mid-bass drivers that (a) fit based on size and depth, (b) have large XMAX and (c) are less than $100 each. This is the first time I've tried to select speakers so I'm sure I'm missing something. Any advice is much appreciated.
The reason I suggested the Seas driver is the comparatively large XMAX value (10mm) and shallow depth (76mm). My 2nd choice based on size, depth and XMAX is the GR Research M-165X. The M-165X has a slightly lower XMAX of 7.8mm and the speaker is slightly deeper. My 3rd choice is the Mach 5 Audio MLI-65 which has an XMAX of 5.5mm and is about 78mm deep.
Attachments
Xmax on that SEAS is actually 6mm. Look for "linear" excursion and if it's rated as "p-p", divide it by two for one-way movement.
A nice looking speaker, and I'm sure it would work. But unless you plan on a fairly serious amp upgrade in the future, I'd say you were buying a more expensive speaker than you need for that location. Much of it's expense is invested in fine midrange performance that you won't be able to take advantage of.
This buyout Audax:
Parts-Express.com: Audax AP170M0 6-1/2" Shielded Paper Cone Polymer Woofer | audax ap170m0 audax polymer audax woofer audax 6 1/2 buywoof-41108 may perform as well in that location with ~40W/ch, for just over $20 each. (Assuming it's not too big, and the doors are dry.)
Are the little pods open in the back?
A nice looking speaker, and I'm sure it would work. But unless you plan on a fairly serious amp upgrade in the future, I'd say you were buying a more expensive speaker than you need for that location. Much of it's expense is invested in fine midrange performance that you won't be able to take advantage of.
This buyout Audax:
Parts-Express.com: Audax AP170M0 6-1/2" Shielded Paper Cone Polymer Woofer | audax ap170m0 audax polymer audax woofer audax 6 1/2 buywoof-41108 may perform as well in that location with ~40W/ch, for just over $20 each. (Assuming it's not too big, and the doors are dry.)
Are the little pods open in the back?
Last edited:
Thanks for the recommendation. I was concerned about the price of the Seas but was attracted to it because I misinterpreted the XMAX value versus other speakers.
The Audax PDF spec sheet at Parts Express seems to show the mounting flange is 9mm thick. If thats correct then the Audax is too deep for my door.
The Mach 5 MLI-65 appears to fit my space and while it is twice the price of the Audax it is less than half the price of the Seas.
I'm confused about a couple of things:
a) XMAX, if it doesn't say p-p then is it assumed that the speaker moves the XMAX amount out and then that amount in for the cone movement?
b) Do I need at least XMAX amount of clear space between the front of the speaker flange and the grill mounted on the door panel to allow the speaker to move properly?
The Audax PDF spec sheet at Parts Express seems to show the mounting flange is 9mm thick. If thats correct then the Audax is too deep for my door.
The Mach 5 MLI-65 appears to fit my space and while it is twice the price of the Audax it is less than half the price of the Seas.
I'm confused about a couple of things:
a) XMAX, if it doesn't say p-p then is it assumed that the speaker moves the XMAX amount out and then that amount in for the cone movement?
b) Do I need at least XMAX amount of clear space between the front of the speaker flange and the grill mounted on the door panel to allow the speaker to move properly?
They can work but the low QTS is not as nice for IB use. Note the Audax has a high QTS, it should put out a lot at the ~50Hz Fs per watt compared to the others. One would have to model them as the charts do not seem to show this. That is assuming you will midbass them down around 50Hz, the higher QTS should give a flatter curve 50 to say 200 you might use them at. A low QTS tends to roll off on the bottom and require more EQ, which in a car then the EQ tends to start pushing up the sub at its 50Hz LP.
The Dayton RS 6" is another similar driver. Parts-Express.com:*Dayton RS150-4 6" Reference Woofer 4 Ohm | rs225-4 6" woofer midbass rs aluminum cone woofer phase plug dayton daySpeakers123008 daySpeakers123008
I tend to like the more subwoofer style for midbass unless you will run the LP higher into midrange areas. Still has a lowish Fs, maybe their response chart is optimistic not sure, but this TB might work if it fit Parts-Express.com:*Tang Band W6-1139SI 6-1/2" Subwoofer | subwoofer 6" subwoofer neodynium subwoofer tangband tb speakers tangband-22008 But if you run them higher then you will want more of a midrange speaker like earlier picks in this thread, or the dayton rs. They say the dayton is good bang for the buck, but if you try to get under 80Hz you need to limit power to it. It can't crank out the bottom but can go higher.
I would model the Seas and see what you have at the range you plan to run it at.
The Dayton RS 6" is another similar driver. Parts-Express.com:*Dayton RS150-4 6" Reference Woofer 4 Ohm | rs225-4 6" woofer midbass rs aluminum cone woofer phase plug dayton daySpeakers123008 daySpeakers123008
I tend to like the more subwoofer style for midbass unless you will run the LP higher into midrange areas. Still has a lowish Fs, maybe their response chart is optimistic not sure, but this TB might work if it fit Parts-Express.com:*Tang Band W6-1139SI 6-1/2" Subwoofer | subwoofer 6" subwoofer neodynium subwoofer tangband tb speakers tangband-22008 But if you run them higher then you will want more of a midrange speaker like earlier picks in this thread, or the dayton rs. They say the dayton is good bang for the buck, but if you try to get under 80Hz you need to limit power to it. It can't crank out the bottom but can go higher.
I would model the Seas and see what you have at the range you plan to run it at.
It's a nice-looking cast frame woofer at that price. In your doors, it wouldn't be a surprise if they were to outperform the SEAS in midbass. Regardless, they should be flat down to about 60Hz, which is about as good as it gets for a door speaker without something exceptional going on. As mentioned previously, attention to solid mounting/sealing will be rewarded in performance.
a) It SHOULD, but don't assume anything. Typically, "+/-" indicates a one way measurement, no clarification leaves you guessing. And if it doesn't say "linear" travel or excursion, it may be a maximum value well above linear cone travel. If you're relying on a published xmax to make a decision and it's not clear, send an email to be sure you're comparing apples to apples.
For example, the Mach 5 specs aren't clear as to whether that 5.5mm is linear or max travel, one-way or peak to peak. I'd ask them. Just looking at the VC/magnet, it could easily be a p-p value. It would still perform well.
If detailed motor measurements are given, figure it for yourself:
xmax = (voice coil length - gap height) / 2
b) Yep, but use your discretion if it's close.
Don't be overly concerned with xmax in the midbass region at this power level. I doubt it would see 4mm unless you're abusive or trying to get it to produce 40Hz.
Last edited:
Would you point me to a tutorial or other information so I can learn how to model the speaker and door?
Thanks for the info. After taking a hard look at the existing mounting I will either have to cut the mounting flange on two sides for the 6.5" or use a 5.5" speaker.
In case this changes any of the suggestions, I'm also looking at putting in a 100-200W/ch amplifier for the mid-bass speakers after the new speakers are installed.
- Do you have any rules of thumb or suggestions for comparing 6.5" and 5.5" speakers? I believe I can use a 5.5" without modifying either the door or speaker. Using a 6.5" appears to require modifying the speaker mounting flange.
- I saw a statement on another forum that claimed something to effect "... in the mid-bass frequency range speakers that move greater volumes of air should be preferred ..." If this is correct then the GR Research M-130X looks like it would move about 15% more air than the Mach 5 MLI-65. What are your thoughts?
In a situation like this, since you have not purchased the speaker. If that is Bose or another factory amplified system, your factory speaker could be a 1ohm or 2ohm driver. With that said, if you replace it with a 4ohm, you will loose 1/2 power going to the new spk.
From what you posted on Nov 2009 states that you have rear drivers leaning me toward the factory amp issue, if you have a DMM(muliti meter) check the factory spk first. A far more inexpensive driver @ 4ohm that is efficient, could work well without any mods to the door panel enclosure. I am saying that I would use the factory enclosure since it is allready a ported/vented/tuned encosure. I think a little more research would be great before fixing something/modifying something that you can use, no headache.
I also have to ask, does that spk play in "full range"? If it does, a nice pair of co-ax would help bring the sound stage up front, as you allready have drivers in the rear deck and on some of models, even under the seat.
>Check the ohm load first
>determine if is a full range spk
>If so, some nice co-axial would be what I would put in my car.
I do not like making suggestions of speaker companies to anyone, but I will say that Pioneer offers a great sounding, low profile , effiient that will fit that enclosure, and yes they sound good working off the factory amp. I think the # is tsa-632, or 642.
I like things simple that have great sound with minamal mods, hope this makes sence, been dealing with remote start on 7 series BMW, and a wife w/ her monthly thing,LOL. Let us know!
From what you posted on Nov 2009 states that you have rear drivers leaning me toward the factory amp issue, if you have a DMM(muliti meter) check the factory spk first. A far more inexpensive driver @ 4ohm that is efficient, could work well without any mods to the door panel enclosure. I am saying that I would use the factory enclosure since it is allready a ported/vented/tuned encosure. I think a little more research would be great before fixing something/modifying something that you can use, no headache.
I also have to ask, does that spk play in "full range"? If it does, a nice pair of co-ax would help bring the sound stage up front, as you allready have drivers in the rear deck and on some of models, even under the seat.
>Check the ohm load first
>determine if is a full range spk
>If so, some nice co-axial would be what I would put in my car.
I do not like making suggestions of speaker companies to anyone, but I will say that Pioneer offers a great sounding, low profile , effiient that will fit that enclosure, and yes they sound good working off the factory amp. I think the # is tsa-632, or 642.
I like things simple that have great sound with minamal mods, hope this makes sence, been dealing with remote start on 7 series BMW, and a wife w/ her monthly thing,LOL. Let us know!
1- In general, if you can cut a little and get a 6" into a door panel/IB, it's worth the effort in midbass returns. But not just because of increased swept volume, 6" usually have a lower Fs, often have larger voice coils, etc.
2- 15% isn't a significant increase IMHO. That could be counteracted by a difference in efficiency or Qtc. I've heard potent midbass from high-effieciency drivers with only a mm or two of xmax. That being said... the GR M-130x does look nice at a great price, and appears to use Adire's (XBL^2) motor technology for increased usable excursion. Tempting. Notice that it does use a polymer frame as opposed to the Mach 5's cast frame. Not a big deal, but plastic frames can warp if the mounting ring isn't flat and solid. On the plus side, it's easier to trim if you need to knock off a tad here or there.
I don't think you'd go wrong in either case, while saving a few bucks off the SEAS' price. And they'll really wake up when you put that extra power on them.
Last edited:
Thanks for all of the input.
The existing door speakers are mid-bass only. I believe the door speakers have a 1st order low pass filter wired in with the speaker. The original dash speakers used a 1st order high pass filter soldered to the speaker.
I think the door speakers are labeled as 4 ohm .The door and dash speaker on each side are currently wired in parallel. The dash speaker is labeled as a 4 ohm impedance.
The door speakers are located at the rear bottom of the front doors and are aimed at the rear of the seat cushion.
The existing door speakers are mid-bass only. I believe the door speakers have a 1st order low pass filter wired in with the speaker. The original dash speakers used a 1st order high pass filter soldered to the speaker.
I think the door speakers are labeled as 4 ohm .The door and dash speaker on each side are currently wired in parallel. The dash speaker is labeled as a 4 ohm impedance.
The door speakers are located at the rear bottom of the front doors and are aimed at the rear of the seat cushion.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.