Does speaker Qts matter in door installations? - Page 2 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > General Interest > Car Audio

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 21st July 2009, 12:41 PM   #11
diyAudio Member
 
tsmith1315's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Doerun, GA
Quote:
Do you have any suggestions for specific inexpensive drivers to evaluate?
Not really, it would just be interesting to see how some cheap drivers would fare against the well-received ones you listed.

Something like the inexpensive Daytons, TB, anything from DST, the close-out/buyout pages at Mad/PE, etc.

There's bound to be interest in photos, perhaps posted in the "vehicle sound dampening" thread, and a link posted here?
__________________
Tim
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2009, 06:07 PM   #12
jol50 is offline jol50  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally posted by theAnonymous1
My theory has always been that the low Qts and low efficiency of most aftermarket mids was simply to help control the cone due to the abuse most of them see.

Just like subs, I agree. In the past many of my good systems were the proper selection of lower power drivers including car speakers, somewhat overpowered. They had better efficiency and more bass to the mids (not using midbasses) and if you were careful and did not distort it...you could get it pretty loud on say a 2x75@12v amp (maybe even 2x50) with ~50wrms drivers for mids. Once in a while one would let go, but they were cheaper anyway so I just replaced them. That likely also might have saved my hearing some.

IMO the quality of sound was better, but I had to try a fair number of drivers to get the right one to fit the install. Today the rule is use an inefficient driver and toss a lot of power and EQ at it, many can't make bass in the case of mids. More expensive drivers might get you around some of that but I have never used that many of them just ones that were needed to make the install work. HU, processing, and sometimes a driver need to be of high quality no matter or the system will never work well...IMHO. I used a lot of cheap 1" dome tweeters for example with good results.
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2009, 01:12 AM   #13
diyAudio Member
 
tsmith1315's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Doerun, GA
mda185 :
Quote:
Do you have any suggestions for specific inexpensive drivers to evaluate?
Examples from a quick search for inexpensive 6-1/2" drivers at PE:

Some may be discontinued/buyout, some are regular production. Sizes are likely to require slightly larger cutout and depth than standard car speakers...

Dayton classic

Peerless

Goldwood

Vifa

Older versions (C16EU?) of this Pioneer needed a bit of notch filtering, but made strong midbass:
Pioneer

Audax

$8.51

Tymphany
__________________
Tim
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2009, 03:54 PM   #14
mda185 is offline mda185  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: New Jersey
Tim,

Thanks for the suggestions. I looked at the drivers in your post and noticed that most have Xmax of 3-3.5 mm. This will probably mean that all of them of are better suited to restricted midbass duty with a crossover to a dedicated subwoofer. This sparked some additional thinking on how to evaluate. I can model all of the drivers in LEAP including cabin gain effects and cone excursion vs frequency and power input. I am thinking that I will model everything first and see if some clear winners emerge for specific applications.

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2009, 04:27 PM   #15
diyAudio Member
 
tsmith1315's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Doerun, GA
Yeah, xmax is one of those limitatons that's really tough to work around. And with these inexpensive drivers, that's as good as it gets.

Besides being more expensive, many of the long throw woofers may not go high enough for a two-way system. The EPI/Human 6-1/2's have good excursion and mate well with tweeters. I feel sure the Adire Extremis do, too, if they're still available. (Similar to your Kodas?) Neither would fit my definition of cheap, and you already have some nice pricey woofers there to play with...

I agree entirely about limiting their range, and would suggest 60 Hz as a low cutoff to blend well with a sub, or ~45Hz/24dB for a reasonable fascimile of full-range performance with limited output.

As far as the in-car testing, is there anything you need to proceed?

Thanks for the thought.
__________________
Tim
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th July 2009, 04:29 AM   #16
jol50 is offline jol50  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
If you want to search for a while, there are some nice recommendations on drivers to pair up on ssa. I quit going there because they have some real winners posting there, but the older threads can be quite detailed once you toss out the people trying to sell X brand amps and such. They like seas a lot. The dayton RS is pretty nice balance of price/value also. Yes with a 2 way system you will run into needing a large format tweeter to get low enough for a larger/lower woofer, or a sub type woofer will not go high enough to get to a tweeter. It is hard to get midbass from a 6.5 let alone real bass, but possible at low outputs I would guess. It will be a function of how much output you desire, but you can't get bass without a sub hardly. The least I've used to be listenable was an 8", 6x9, or 7x10. Once I did have some clarion coax 6.5, just nominal price ones, and they sounded nice in a small truck door. They were only 40wrms car speakers or something and I'm not sure why they made so much bass. Sometimes the lower power speakers can surprise you long as you don't smoke them.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2009, 03:33 AM   #17
mda185 is offline mda185  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: New Jersey
Default Woofer eval spreadsheet

I have prepared a spreadsheet that lists all the drivers I am considering for this study. It is zipped and attached to this post.

The drivers that Tim suggested are listed with their Parts Express part numbers. I already own the first 7 drivers to test. I do not intend to buy the other drivers before I run some LEAP simulations of them.

The I have listed T/S parameters on a separate page. The comparison matrix page lists some of the excursion calculations I want to make with LEAP. I am open to suggestions of other parameters to evaluate with LEAP. I thought the -3 dB frequency installed in the door and excursion figures would tell most of the story.

Tim, funny that you mentioned the Human driver. I had no idea they existed but the first pair of speakers I bought were Genesis two way bookshelf models around 1980. (Along with an Advent 300 Receiver.) Several years later, I purchased a pair of EPI bookshelf models for my parents They are still using the EPI's.

I don't think I need anything else to start testing. Just some time to finish the mdf adapter rings and attach them to my car doors. Thanks for all the interest.
Attached Files
File Type: zip woof eval.zip (5.7 KB, 23 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2009, 11:49 PM   #18
diyAudio Member
 
tsmith1315's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Doerun, GA
Default Re: Woofer eval spreadsheet

Quote:
Originally posted by mda185
The comparison matrix page lists some of the excursion calculations I want to make with LEAP. I am open to suggestions of other parameters to evaluate with LEAP. I thought the -3 dB frequency installed in the door and excursion figures would tell most of the story.
I've never worked with LEAP, or really any software to speak of, so I don't know what they'll tell you these days. I did try TermPro? for a short time back in '87 or so, but I found it more useful as a parameter database than a box designer.

Here are a couple of points of interest:

-Predicted f(-3dB) and f(-10dB) in infinite baffle

-Excursion limited output/power required to get there at the 60/100/200Hz points you've chosen. It may tell a story to group the columns by frequency, as in:

60Hz
25W - 50W - Pmax - SPLmax

-SPL@2.83v/1m at 100Hz or so. A lot of folks aren't keen on using 8 ohm drivers, so this may be of interest.


OK, storytime now...
A dude I worked with eons ago explained the perils of wiring two pairs of 4 ohm woofers in series to a customer whose woofers weren't performing like he wanted.

"See, the woofers are wired in series," he says, tracing the way the wires were strung from one woofer to another. "The sound has to go through the first woofer before it goes into the second woofer."

Uh-huh, we'll see where he's going with this...

Continuing with his wisdom, he explains "The problem is it hits the first woofer HARDER than the second one. That's what's wrong. You need to wire them in parallel so the music gets to both woofers at the same time. I don't ever wire anything in series, it just don't sound good."

Umm, yeah.

He rewired it for the guy before deciding a better amp would also be needed along with 4 better woofers. Weeks later, he took a 5" hole saw to the door of that same Cadillac -right above the armrest- without bothering to look behind the panel first.

Those were the days!
__________________
Tim
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th July 2009, 01:49 AM   #19
mda185 is offline mda185  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: New Jersey
jl50, I have been out of audio for a while and don't know what SSA is. It seems most of the car audio specific forums are populated with too many folks more concerned with forcing their speculation and opinion on others than actually sharing ideas and experience and learning from each other. This forum feels different in a very positive way. The only other forum I have found to be worthwhile is DIY Mobile Audio and that has its ups and downs.

As far as driver pairings, the one I really want to investigate is the Peerless SLS 6.5" subwoofer with the Fountek FR88EX 3" full range driver. Part of this project will involve putting the Peerless SLS 6.5 in the doors and crossing them over to the Founteks at 200 Hz. I will build some test pods for the Founteks to mount them at the base of the A pillars. There will be no subwoofer. I want to see if the SLS 6.5 are good enough for my listening needs. I don't need to play my music any louder than is safe for long term hearing. I have already damaged my hearing more than is reasonable with loud music, loud cars, and loud motorcycles. (Hopefully, I can keep my kids from making the same dumb mistakes I did with my ears.) I have a feeling this speaker combination may work really well in my Pathfinder. I am still going to evaluate other woofers but the SLS has Xmax of 8 mm and nothing else comes close for the money. Over on DIYMA, there are already some good reviews of the Founteks. I am really looking forward to checking them out. As with the woofers, I will measure installed frequency response and report here.
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th July 2009, 07:59 PM   #20
jol50 is offline jol50  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
I wanted to run 8s with a fostex 3" FR, but got onto other projects. It is sound solutions audio, just use the search to find threads on drivers there are some great older threads in there. Some of the people are really nasty there, too bad, like this M3 guy iirc, he is all my way or he pulls out personal insults right away. It was funny but that wears off pretty fast. Plus they hawk products on there forcefully. Diyma can also have some good material I still visit there. This place is super nice but more technical and electronics leaning.

I search those sites and try to find setups that match what I want to do, if a lot of people like X tweet and Y mid in size/app I have then I'll try it out. Mostly it helps to match what ones will crossover properly in use, sometimes the published specs don't tell the whole story and that tweeter does not play well as low as they say, or something like that. For example to run a 8 in two way is near impossible, you need a 3" full range minimum even with a 8" woofer not a sub. Best is a 7" with a tweeter that goes lower than usual or go to a three way. Lately I am looking at the point source coax, I'd like to try one never have. I've never found much advantage running active tweeters sometimes even comps over coax, but I do have way more issues with midbass so looking to run larger drivers some way. Plus I like a good image/wide stage, so point source might work if they were smaller. Busy so its on the back burner right now.

Also diyma has a whole section of driver tests/reviews, don't miss that in case you did not see it. Peerless are good drivers, should be able to find a lot of threads about them at diyma and ssa.

I'd suggest if you run to 200Hz, try to fit larger mid if you can but I'm not familiar with the mount in that vehicle.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
front door speaker placement Dan2 Car Audio 16 12th September 2011 02:30 PM
1st BIB, or diy speaker for that matter masterxela Full Range 5 9th April 2008 04:22 PM
6.5 full range door speaker skooter Car Audio 0 21st November 2007 03:22 AM
Using a t-line speaker on a car door? ksl Multi-Way 7 30th August 2005 04:03 PM
What speaker specs for a free air install (aka car door)? and other suggestions MITMechE Multi-Way 2 11th May 2002 09:52 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 09:28 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2