I am fairly a Newbie at Car Audio so I appologize for my lack of knowledge. I just purchased a Pioneer PRS-D2200T 2 channel amp for my sub or subs. Maybe I should of bought a mono-block type amp instead but that is water under the bridge. Anyhow, it is rated as follows:
150W RMS x 2 Channels at 4 ohms
600 W RMS x 1 Channel at 4 ohms
300 W RMS x 2 Channels at 2 ohms
My question is on what sub to get. I am looking at the Infinity Perfect 10.1 Sub. DO I GET THE DUAL VOICE COIL OR THE SINGLE VOICE COIL??? I was planning on just running one sub in a sealed enclosure. If I do run only one sub would I use a dual or single voice coil sub? It seems to me that if I run only one sub that it should be a single voice coil. The other question is what if I decide later to go to two subs. I am just trying to do the right thing here and I am trying to utilize or pull the most power out of my amp also. ALso, what is the best way to hook it up. I NEED HELP PLEASE!! Thank you all in advace for any help.
150W RMS x 2 Channels at 4 ohms
600 W RMS x 1 Channel at 4 ohms
300 W RMS x 2 Channels at 2 ohms
My question is on what sub to get. I am looking at the Infinity Perfect 10.1 Sub. DO I GET THE DUAL VOICE COIL OR THE SINGLE VOICE COIL??? I was planning on just running one sub in a sealed enclosure. If I do run only one sub would I use a dual or single voice coil sub? It seems to me that if I run only one sub that it should be a single voice coil. The other question is what if I decide later to go to two subs. I am just trying to do the right thing here and I am trying to utilize or pull the most power out of my amp also. ALso, what is the best way to hook it up. I NEED HELP PLEASE!! Thank you all in advace for any help.
don't buy a dual voice coil driver.
It is compromised simply to get the 4 leads out of the voice coil.
If you want good performance and good efficiency, use a good 8ohm driver on each channel. You should get >80W/channel into 8r0.
160W into 96dB/W/m drivers is louder than 600W into 90dB/W/m drivers and far louder than 600W into 86dB/W/m drivers.
there's something very wrong with this specification.
if each amp can push 150W into 4r0, it should be able to push 300W into 8r0 when bridged.
But, it will never be able to push 600W into 4r0 bridged, nor 300W into 2r0
It is compromised simply to get the 4 leads out of the voice coil.
If you want good performance and good efficiency, use a good 8ohm driver on each channel. You should get >80W/channel into 8r0.
160W into 96dB/W/m drivers is louder than 600W into 90dB/W/m drivers and far louder than 600W into 86dB/W/m drivers.
BTW,
there's something very wrong with this specification.
if each amp can push 150W into 4r0, it should be able to push 300W into 8r0 when bridged.
But, it will never be able to push 600W into 4r0 bridged, nor 300W into 2r0
Thanks for the replies. How do I get the most power out of this amp for just one 4 ohm sub? Do I bridge the amp for the 600W x 1 at 4 ohms? Does anyone think that I will need 2 subs in a sealed enclosure in a Toyota Camry or will the one sub be efficient enough? I don't listen to rap music and I want a really tight bass line. If I do decide to run 2 subs, won't I need 2 of the dual voice coil subs wired in line or would I run the amp unbridged to each sub on a single voice coil?
it simple current flow and voltage drops.richie00boy said:
As the load resistance goes down the current goes up.
This inherently leads to increased voltage drops along traces, along wires, across semiconductors, everywhere, even from the SMPS.
Increased voltage drops equates to less voltage at the output and even less by the time the current reaches the speaker driver terminals.
A really good amp will lose of the order of 0.4dB to 0.6dB when the load impedance is halved.
A respectable amplifier will lose 0.7dB to 1dB.
Most car amplifiers will lose >1dB when the impedance is halved and some lose >2dB.
It comes down to "how gullible are the customers"?
Why do you want the most power output?kdhorne73 said:
Would you settle for the most SPL from the driver?
Would you want good quality output?
Maybe these don't matter to Car Audio customers, most listeners of music like to hear what's on the recording.
BTW,
sub = what?
Answer, Sub - Bass, i.e. the frequencies below the bass notes.
Do you want Sub - Bass, or do you want musical Bass?
Andrew I do want to have good quality bass and not just the basic rap music boom. This is why I have chosen a sealed enclosure and the Infinity Perfect 10 sub. I would have gone with the image dynamics sub but I am on a budget. I just want to get the most power out of my amp since I have paid for the power it is capable of providing. I can add or take away bass if desired since it does have a remote bass knob with the amp. I just don't understand what sub to purchase - the single or dual voice coil??? If I only use one sub will I get more power from the single or dual voice coil. On the Crutchfiled website it shows what I have pasted below. It shows 8 ohms coming from the amp using a DVC vs. 4 ohms coming out of the amp using a SVC. Does this mean that there would be less power drawn from the amp using a DVC on one sub???? This is what I don' t understand. I don't want half of the power if I am using a DVC to one sub. Quality Bass is what I am looking for, but I would like to be able to feel the bass too. The sub will be in the trunk of my car. ANY SUGGESTIONS????
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/ca/learningcenter/car/subwoofer_wiring/1DVC_4-ohm_2ch.jpg
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/ca/learningcenter/car/subwoofer_wiring/1SVC_4-ohm_2ch.jpg
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/ca/learningcenter/car/subwoofer_wiring/1DVC_4-ohm_2ch.jpg
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/ca/learningcenter/car/subwoofer_wiring/1SVC_4-ohm_2ch.jpg
Without going into a long discussion of these important relationships:
And
There are some misconceptions:
The consequences of going to a reduced load - wiring up a speakers to get as low an impedance as possible - is the current goes up.
All conductive paths ( wires circuit traces, semiconductor junctions, etc ) have a fixed current carrying capacity.
You do get more power out of the amp - BUT the increase in current ( amperage ) results in heat - the amp that runs hotter and ultimately shortens amp life.
There is an old saying that what counts is what you do with the first few watts vs how many watts you can put into a speaker.
All woofers start to heat up quickly, and it doesn't take long or much power for the effects of thermal compression to kick in, so multiple woofers sharing the job suffers less than 1 woofer driven harder.
It is more important to have efficiency than overinflated high power ratings.
You could in reality get by with 1 woofer, but 2 offer the advantages stated and also a mutual coupling advantage, and you did express the desire to keep that option open.
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And
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
There are some misconceptions:
The consequences of going to a reduced load - wiring up a speakers to get as low an impedance as possible - is the current goes up.
All conductive paths ( wires circuit traces, semiconductor junctions, etc ) have a fixed current carrying capacity.
You do get more power out of the amp - BUT the increase in current ( amperage ) results in heat - the amp that runs hotter and ultimately shortens amp life.
There is an old saying that what counts is what you do with the first few watts vs how many watts you can put into a speaker.
All woofers start to heat up quickly, and it doesn't take long or much power for the effects of thermal compression to kick in, so multiple woofers sharing the job suffers less than 1 woofer driven harder.
It is more important to have efficiency than overinflated high power ratings.
You could in reality get by with 1 woofer, but 2 offer the advantages stated and also a mutual coupling advantage, and you did express the desire to keep that option open.
Yes:
Out of the 2:
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/ca/learningcenter/car/subwoofer_wiring/1SVC_4-ohm_2ch.jpg
Presents a 4 ohm load to the amp ( vs the 8 ohm load w the series wired DVC model )
I had 2 8" woofers in a Subaru sedan and it was fine, so 1 woofer should be all you need
Out of the 2:
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/ca/learningcenter/car/subwoofer_wiring/1SVC_4-ohm_2ch.jpg
Presents a 4 ohm load to the amp ( vs the 8 ohm load w the series wired DVC model )
I had 2 8" woofers in a Subaru sedan and it was fine, so 1 woofer should be all you need
Hi,
you can use any impedance of driver from 2ohms upwards on that solid state amplifier.
It will perform better with a higher impedance driver. I doubt it will sound at all good with a 2ohm driver. So the choice is between 4ohm and 8ohm.
The power output will be less into an 8ohm driver than into a 4ohm driver. If the efficiency of the 8ohm driver is higher than the 4ohm driver one may obtain more SPL from the higher efficiency driver.
Let' suppose the amp does indeed produce 80W into 8r0 and 150W into 4r0. That's a loss of only 0.3dB into the 4r0 load. I suspect the amp will give substantially more than 80W into 8r0. maybe 90W or possibly as much as 100W into 8r0. I'll use 80W for the following examples
Let's pick two drivers:
A 4ohm 86dB/W/m driver that is typical of the low efficiency drivers available for Car Audio.
and
An 8ohm 90dB/W/m driver that is more typical of home stereo drivers.
The max SPL of the 4ohm driver will be 21.8+86 ~ 107.8dB/m
The max SPL of the 8ohm driver will be 19.0+90 ~109dB/m
The 8ohm driver is capable of higher peak output.
Now compare the sound quality of both combinations, the 8ohm should sound better due to the lower current demand of the higher impedance driver.
If you reduce the gain of the amplifier by that 1.2dB of extra output, the 8ohm driver and amplifier will now have even less distortion than the same output level from the 4ohm driver. The result is that the 8ohm can match the SPL of the 4ohm driver and sounds better as well. It's not often you can have your cake and eat it.
Now substitute a PA efficiency driver for the home stereo version 8ohm and 97dB/W/m will achieve an extra 8.2dB more SPL than the typical 4ohm Car Audio driver. This allows the gain to be turned down even further giving still less distortion.
Don't be fooled by all that POWER talk that comes from the CAR AUDIO brigade.
Oh,
and be careful how the retailer specifies the sensitivity of the drivers.
86dB/W/M does not look good for a 4ohm driver, so they confuse the issue by pumping two watts into it and saying the sensitivity is 89dB/2.83V/m. It appears better in the spec sheet, but it's the same efficiency. If that had been a 2ohm driver it would say 92dB/2.83V/m by pumping 4W into the 2ohm driver. Of course we are referring to Car Audio spec sheets and it's not beneath them to swap W for 2.83V and hope you don't notice. The result is a 2ohm driver with a deliberately untruthful 92dB/W/m specification. when it is actually 86dB/W/m. Be on your guard.
you can use any impedance of driver from 2ohms upwards on that solid state amplifier.
It will perform better with a higher impedance driver. I doubt it will sound at all good with a 2ohm driver. So the choice is between 4ohm and 8ohm.
The power output will be less into an 8ohm driver than into a 4ohm driver. If the efficiency of the 8ohm driver is higher than the 4ohm driver one may obtain more SPL from the higher efficiency driver.
Let' suppose the amp does indeed produce 80W into 8r0 and 150W into 4r0. That's a loss of only 0.3dB into the 4r0 load. I suspect the amp will give substantially more than 80W into 8r0. maybe 90W or possibly as much as 100W into 8r0. I'll use 80W for the following examples
Let's pick two drivers:
A 4ohm 86dB/W/m driver that is typical of the low efficiency drivers available for Car Audio.
and
An 8ohm 90dB/W/m driver that is more typical of home stereo drivers.
The max SPL of the 4ohm driver will be 21.8+86 ~ 107.8dB/m
The max SPL of the 8ohm driver will be 19.0+90 ~109dB/m
The 8ohm driver is capable of higher peak output.
Now compare the sound quality of both combinations, the 8ohm should sound better due to the lower current demand of the higher impedance driver.
If you reduce the gain of the amplifier by that 1.2dB of extra output, the 8ohm driver and amplifier will now have even less distortion than the same output level from the 4ohm driver. The result is that the 8ohm can match the SPL of the 4ohm driver and sounds better as well. It's not often you can have your cake and eat it.
Now substitute a PA efficiency driver for the home stereo version 8ohm and 97dB/W/m will achieve an extra 8.2dB more SPL than the typical 4ohm Car Audio driver. This allows the gain to be turned down even further giving still less distortion.
Don't be fooled by all that POWER talk that comes from the CAR AUDIO brigade.
Oh,
and be careful how the retailer specifies the sensitivity of the drivers.
86dB/W/M does not look good for a 4ohm driver, so they confuse the issue by pumping two watts into it and saying the sensitivity is 89dB/2.83V/m. It appears better in the spec sheet, but it's the same efficiency. If that had been a 2ohm driver it would say 92dB/2.83V/m by pumping 4W into the 2ohm driver. Of course we are referring to Car Audio spec sheets and it's not beneath them to swap W for 2.83V and hope you don't notice. The result is a 2ohm driver with a deliberately untruthful 92dB/W/m specification. when it is actually 86dB/W/m. Be on your guard.
Andrew I think you are misleading him, neglecting to mention that as efficiency goes up so does resonance frequency, i.e. bass response won't go as deep, all other things being equal. This is the reason why car sub drivers are so power hungry - because they trade efficiency for bass from a small box.
Thank you all for the replies. Hey HK26147 if I use a SVC single sub and decide to go to 2 subs later on am I hurt by purchasing the SVC sub? I am just asking that because of this:
Would it be better to bridge 2 DVC Subs on this Pioneer PRS D220T amp vs. Running 2 SVC subs on 2 channels. THIS IS ONE OF MY BIG QUESTIONS. Thanks again to all of you for your 2 cents.
Kevin
Would it be better to bridge 2 DVC Subs on this Pioneer PRS D220T amp vs. Running 2 SVC subs on 2 channels. THIS IS ONE OF MY BIG QUESTIONS. Thanks again to all of you for your 2 cents.
Kevin
I don't think I am.
Many Car Audio subs are very inefficient and it has little to do with Fs and/or cone/voice coil mass.
Pick a decent driver with an appropriate VAS, appropriate Fs, appropriate Sensitivity and finally an appropriate Qts.
If needed add a little bit of Linkwitz Transform if the cabin gain does not extend the bass response low enough or strong enough.
But, don't go adding 20dB of Transform gain.
Keep the gain to <=10dB.
Many Car Audio subs are very inefficient and it has little to do with Fs and/or cone/voice coil mass.
Pick a decent driver with an appropriate VAS, appropriate Fs, appropriate Sensitivity and finally an appropriate Qts.
If needed add a little bit of Linkwitz Transform if the cabin gain does not extend the bass response low enough or strong enough.
But, don't go adding 20dB of Transform gain.
Keep the gain to <=10dB.
If your amp is correctly specified as giving 600W into 4ohms when bridged and giving 300W+300W into 2r0 +2r0 then consider the following.kdhorne73 said:
Drive one 2r0 load from one channel giving a maximum output of 300W.
Drive the other 2r0 load from the second channel again giving maximum output of 300W.
Add up the total output fed to the pair of drivers. I reckon it's 600W.
Now bridge the amplifier and series connect the two 2ohm voice coils. Lets call the load 4r0.
What is the maximum output specified for a 4r0 load when the amps are bridged.
It is exactly the same, 600W.
That's how bridging should work.
Double the power into double the load impedance.
if it is capable of 300W into 2r0 then bridged will give 600W into 4r0.
If it is capable of 150W into 4r0 then bridged will give 300W into 8r0.
If it is capable of 80W into 8r0 then bridged will give 160W into 16r0.
But, remember my earlier advice "do not expect this amplifier to drive a 2ohm speaker well".
Discard the idea of using a 2ohm driver when channels are individually driven and as a consequence discard the idea of driving a 4ohm driver when bridged.
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